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P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes)
    #1549173 -

I've got a question concerning our little azurescens buddies that are difficult to cultivate indoors...

Why??  Wish Anno would read this post. I'm just wondering why the environmental conditions are so hard to reproduces for azures.

Fruiting temps need to be around 50F if I've read correctly. Humidity would be a problem at that temperature, but one could easily circumvent that particular one using a vaporizor/other humidifier.

I know they don't have a symbiotic relationship with trees (like A. muscaria), since they can be grown in outdoor beds. Spawn is easy enough to generate. So why is it that one couldn't simply put a tub of spawn cased with a standard casing mix and fruited in a fridge using some manner of humidification? I do realize that temps inside a standard refrigerator range from 34-38 degrees F normally, so you would have to get a different refrigerator (perhaps a "mini' fridge) and raise the temp to 50F.

Anno, Joshua - I know both of you have done azures in the past, and I believe that Anno has attempted an indoor cultivation with limited results. Hopefully you might shed some insight as to why these guys hate the indoors so much!  :smirk:

Peace

PS - if this belongs in the General Questions forum, please move. I think this is the correct forum though. :wink: 


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The blue... the blue!!!

Edited by Rustik (05/16/03 12:40 PM)

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1549244 -

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum4&Number=85673&Forum=CatSearch-1&Words=azurescens%20indoors&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=85669&Search=true#Post85673

I found this post, as well as some other indoor logs. What I have come up with so far (without any feedback :frown: ):

1) Gas exchange is CRITICAL. Azures require a lot of air exchange, which I believe could be provided by fanning more often than you would normally fan P. cubensis. Or you could set up a fan on a timer to "freshen" the air every hour or so.

2) Azures require a humid environment with lots of gas exchange, and mother nature is the best at providing BOTH conditions simultaneously. However, it is NOT impossible indoors, just requires a more expensive setup (or at least some sort of humidifier, perlite doesn't seem to provide the correct amount of humidity due to low temps)

3) Variations in temperature (day/night) are important. One must lower the temperature around 10-12F for several hours a day to simulate night. A timer and a little electrical expertise, and a fridge could be rigged to provide just the right temperature fluctuation.

4) Apparently the Nitrogen to Oxygen ratio in the casing layer is also important, at least according to the post linked above. Azures prefer a higher nitrogen to oxygen ratio, whereas P. cubensis prefer a higher oxygen to nitrogen ratio. Nitrogen can be easily procured if you need to raise nitrogen levels to initiate primordia formation.. Or, the post refers to decomposers known as "actinomycetes" that produce ammonia and nitrogen. Using outdoor soil or compost as an "upper" casing layer would seem to work. Not completely sure on this though, more info would be appreciated.

I know I'm missing something, because one could easily accomodate any/all of the above requirements..  I don't know if anyone knows what it is for sure, but if it's something simple, please enlighten me. I'm not a dumbass, so if I'm leaving something obvious out, don't bash me. :wink: 


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The blue... the blue!!!

Edited by Rustik (05/14/03 08:27 PM)

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1549333 -

im with you on that. i have never found another reason this wouldnt work, besides the obvious, an expensive setup. im tryin to by a mini fridge. drill two wholes in them, for tubing plug the tubing untill air exchange/humidifying goes on i mean you would think it would work, i dunno try it

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1549336 -

Try AMC.


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sup d00dz

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1549706 -

Seems that you already know more about the indoor cultivation than I do.

I also think that P. azurescens requires(prefers?) certain microorganisms, bacteria, that help induce fruiting.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1549818 -

I've never attempted inddor cultivation and have only completed one outdoor bed.

Interestingly enough, I spawned in late June and harvested in November of the same year.

The fruiting did occur under a rhododendron. I made more than one patch and only the patch under the living rhodie fruited. The other rhodie died and the patch under it did not fruit.

As far as advice, it sounds like you might not need any. If you attempt to duplicate the fruiting parameters as closely as possible you are doing about as much as you can.

The mycorhizal and bacterial inducing of pinning are only speculations, but ideas to consider.

I wish you a good fruiting experience and look forward to seeing or hearing of your progress.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Joshua]
    #1550070 -

This is the only indoor success I've seen:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Growlog&Number=1020073&Forum=All_Forums&Words=azurescens&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=1020070&Search=true#Post1020073

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: zeronio]
    #1550240 -

The so called outdoor-indoor success, one reason more why I believe some microorganisms are in play.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #1551472 -

Yes, that particular person started the cultivation outdoors and moved it indoors Into his cold cellar.

If microorganisms play an important role in the life cycle of azures ( IF ), then it may be wise to use soil from their natural habitat as a casing layer. It may very well be the ONLY way to do it successfully.

A good experiment would be to case one subject with whatever casing material you prefer, and then case another subject with natural outdoor soil from their natural habitat. I believe this side-by-side comparison would be extremely valuable and could provide the answers I have been looking for.

I may very well take a shot at this in the near future. Only setback would be the refrigeration, I would definitely have to procure one of those mini-fridges, and those babies aren't cheap. I believe my parents may have one sitting idle back home, a nice one too - I may just see if I can't get that from 'em! If so, then this little experiment may begin very soon. If/when I start it up, I'll put a report in the grow log forums. I've got some nifty ideas kicking around, and I'm pretty sure I could simulate a decent microenvironment with around 80-90% accuracy.

Another thing - Actinomycetes are found in pretty much ALL soil, so it shouldn't matter what soil you use. :smile:

Peace, and thanks for the feedback - some interesting bits of info here. I'm beginning to feel very strongly that microorganisms in the casing layer (soil) play an important role. Perhaps they put off more N2 during the cold season, which prompts the mycelial body to form primordia..  We shall see, hopefully!  :wink: 


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The blue... the blue!!!

Edited by Rustik (05/15/03 04:02 PM)

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1551494 -

thanks for the info


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mushroom culture history making ...Mr. Allan is the best .....

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1551559 -

AHA!! I think I have got it. I really do.

Ok, Anno and Joshua should be able to back me up on this. Though I have never personally done an outdoor azure bed (the climate in my area would not support them), I believe it is correct that most often fruits will form towards the edges of the bed (anywhere from the very edge to 15 cm inside the perimeter).  Read the following:

http://www.digitalseed.com/composter/biology/actinomycetes.html

Actinomycetes are found most abundantly toward the outsides of compost piles (i.e., your spawn bed) right when the bed is "ripe" (during the early stages of compost, before the spawn has been spent). They love cellulose and hard plant matter (i.e. hardwood shavings :smile: ).

Based on the information from that site (albeit a small amount) as well as other sources, I have formed a theory:

Actinomycetes and relatives thereof begin breaking down the plant matter in a spawn bed either immediately or very soon after the bed has been established with spawn. This is normally done during the warmer months of the year, allowing the actinomycetes to slowly work on the edges of the bed. When the cold weather hits, the spawn has been broken down a bit from the decomposition. The mycelium, which has been further colonizing the substrate throughout this period, spurred by the weather change begins to form primordia. The reason the primordia forms on the outside of the bed is because the actinomycetes A) are producing nitrogen as a byproduct which is inducing primordia formation around the edges of the bed or B) have broken down the cellulose of the plant matter into a form that is more readily decomposed by the mycelium, and this burst of extra food plus the change in weather causes primordia formation.

OR it could be a combination of the two. However, I am almost 100% convinced now that the actinomycetes play a very key role in the fruiting of P. azurescens. If only I had the capacity to test my theory today!! :smile: Anno or Josh - I urge you to pursue this theory, as I currently am not able to do so myself. I hope this information has been helpful!

One other thing I have thought of that could prove to be a very good way of testing the theory that actinomycetes play a role in fruiting:

Stir up your outdoor bed once or twice before it's time to fruit. Mix soil in with it good. If the actinomycetes establish themselves in the middle of the bed, as well as along the outer edges, you would see a very big difference in growth - primordia forming all over the bed rather than around the edges of it.


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The blue... the blue!!!

Edited by Rustik (05/15/03 04:13 PM)

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1551573 -

More info - according to THIS website:

http://www.kuleuven.ac.be/gih/actinom.htm

the actinomycetes are also a slow growing species, which might explain why, although the bed has been sitting there for months, the fruiting still occurs around the edges - because these little symbiotic bacteria simply don't spread very quickly.


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The blue... the blue!!!

Edited by Rustik (05/15/03 04:10 PM)

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1551625 -

Even more info supporting the actinomycetes theory:

Quote:
from the pictures ive seen it seems that azures seem like to grow up from underneath a log or at the side of a box. i suspect they like to have something like that where they can gather their forces or maybe they like the support?
i think im gonna go throw a big branch on my cyan patch to see what happens...



This was a quote from YouInfoIt from 11/28/02. Honestly don't know how much this guy knows about outdoor fruitings, but this sounds about right. If the mushies are seen growing from underneath a log/side of a box, it could possibly be because the actinomycetes have already established themselves in that particular area, so that's where fruits form first.

Quote:
young azure and cyan patches typically only fruit from the outside edge of the patch. try upping the air exchange for larger caps.



I know these are unreliable sources, but I've seen this repeated again and again. This was a post by cyan-shaman on 11/21/02. Again, this supports the theory that actinomycetes are either directly or indirectly responsible for pinning.

Both of these posts came from the link above:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Growlog&Number=1020073&Forum=All_Forums&Words=azurescens&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=1020070&Search=true#Post1020073

Hope this helps someone get a good indoor tek together. That would be the greatest thing since the PF Tek!!!

Also thought of something else:

Improving an outdoor azure patch (UNTESTED): This is a bit time consuming, and takes a long time to prepare, but once you have done it once, you can turn it into a cycle alternating beds. Take a few big bags of hardwood chips or sawdust and prepare a bed withOUT spawn, ONLY the hardwood sawdust/chips. Let this sit for an entire year, tilling/mixing it once a month to spread the actinomycetes througout the bed. Then, when the time comes around the next year, go ahead and prepare your bed as you would normally with azure spawn. If you set up two alternating beds, you should be able to have a bed prepared for each season. :smile:

This could possibly drastically increase flush size/frequency, but like I said, it is as of yet untested.


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The blue... the blue!!!

Edited by Rustik (05/15/03 04:09 PM)

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1551828 -

Some very good research there Rustik.  I can think of no rebuttal :smile:
It makes sense; TMC has pictures of 'perfect compost' that has actinomycetes running all through it.  What's interesting to me, though, is that if this association is proven, it is an association with PINNING and not colonization.  Pure, fresh, sterilized wood is colonized by cyan/azure spawn very quickly [if prepared correctly anyway].  The positive symbioses associated with pinning is most often with cased mushrooms, ala Pseudomonas spp. and Agaricus.  With mushrooms that 'don't require a casing' it would be interesting to identify a bacterial factor [are actino's still called bacteria?].  Interesting idea there.  I recently added a big bag of good well-aged compost to my cyan bed here, just because it 'felt right' :wink:

**oops, just a second, comp problems. 

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Suntzu]
    #1551875 -

Good luck wth that compost :smile:

What I'm thinking is that the pinning may not be directly related to the presence of actinomycetes. They may serve a more indirect purpose. By raising the nitrogen levels of the soil, they create a very desirable environment for primordia formation, as well as a rich source of energy. I believe the weather sends the signal that it's time to start fruiting, but the azures simply will NOT fruit unless the nitrogen levels are high enough. That's my guess, anyway.

And you watch - I bet you that your composted cyan bed explodes this season! :smile: At least I hope so. :tongue: Cyans and azures are closely related, so IMO what will work with one will probably work with the other.


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The blue... the blue!!!

Edited by Rustik (05/15/03 04:41 PM)

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1551901 -

I agree 100%.  Some metabolic byproduct, some elusive fatty acid, who the hell knows.
Some local hunters I know [heh heh] have noticed that places that have been torn up in August still fruit incredibly well and evenly come October.



This one had better do better than last year's :laugh: 

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Suntzu]
    #1551934 -

Quote:
Some local hunters I know [heh heh] have noticed that places that have been torn up in August still fruit incredibly well and evenly come October.



Further supporting the theory :smile:

I'm going to do some more research tonight and see if I can't narrow it down to a few specific species. The term "actinomycetes" includes a fairly broad range of decomposers, but it is my understanding that the various species work together in yet another symbiotic relationship, so I'm not sure that it would even be possible to narrow it down any further than the general term above. However, further research is warrented regardless, I will update this thread as I find new information.

Peace

EDIT - changed thread title, this thread has gone in a new, very promising direction and the name should reflect it :smile:


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The blue... the blue!!!

Edited by Rustik (05/15/03 05:19 PM)

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1552040 -

this is very interesting...I've always wondered myself why azurescens are so hard too cultivate indoors....best of luck and keep us informed on your progress

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: realrasta]
    #1554024 -

The use of a casing from the adjoining forest litter and topsoil is interesting. A foaf grows azures and cynans. He covers his cyans with a layer of straw with excellent results. He has cased his azures with the surrounding soil near his beds on one occasion and with straw on another. Casing with soil resulted in ample flushes while the straw saw only sparse mushrooms. He attributed the sparseness to a particularly harsh winter but after reading this thread I expect the problem could in fact be the casing.

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: hermes3]
    #1554040 -

Try casing with aged dung and/or wood compost (or instead of wood compost perhaps topsoil from a densly wooded area).. I imagine we will begin to see some very nice outdoor patches in a few months! :laugh: 


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The blue... the blue!!!

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1554398 -

Actinomycetes can be cultured by keeping temps around 120 degress. This is relatively simple. The Bob Harris express composting can do this easily. It's been described repeatedly over the years, basically a cooler and a steam humidifier.

Just take your wood chips, mix with a little soil/compost to innoculate with actis, then hold the temps at 120 for a day/couple days.

Acti's are not slow growing or spreading, they just prefer higher temps than are commonly found outdoors in nature. If you think they may be the key, and I think you've got the best theory I've heard so far, then encourage their cultivation via composting.

Also, along with the theory, it may be that azure's eat the acti's. This is what I'm imagining: Acti's thrive and spread during the summer, but like you said prefering the edges, then when the cold weather hits, they die, the azures eat their dead cells (they would simply co-exist if the temps were higher), and the ingestion of the acti's stimulates the fruiting. The reason I'm hoping this is it, is that it basically would/could rule out the temps as being necessary to fruition. One would simply need to culture actis on wood, kill the actis, then mix with an established azure bed to stimulate the fruiting. A longer shot than your mult-pointed approach, but it sure would be cool if it became that simple.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: mycofile]
    #1554685 -

found some info on this korean site on composting and micro-organisms :
quote :
Sawdust fermented feed
most farmer believe that sawdust cannot be used for manure or as feed.
This is because sawdust contains tannin or lignin which, if plant roots are in touch with, cause the root to wither and if animals eat a large amount of sawdust, animals might die due to stomach disorder. However, if saw-dusts are fermented rising effective microbes, tannin and lignin are dissoved during the course of fermenting and even the strongest fibrous materials are changed to digestible state, creating top-quality feed or manure.
http://www.organic.or.kr/whatis/what6.php
jut a thought...in the end mushroomformation is all with the (reproductive)purpose of spore-creation , so could it be that the actinomyces in some way promote sporegermination so the mycelium starts producing mushrooms when the surrounding substrate is favourable for this germination ?

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: jarhead]
    #1554758 -

from a seminar held at wageningen on agro-ecosystems health :
a healthy soil produces antibiotics by its actinomyces
another site even claimed that is what we smell when we smell good soil
at the university of kentucky , college of agriculture a page with most growthparameters etc is published :
http://www.ca.uky.edu/agripedia/classes/pls566/class16.htm
and another one :
." Might it be that in their struggle for survival within the soil these human pathogens were destroyed by chemicals produced by other species of bacteria? These chemicals and Waksman was the first to coin this term would be "antibiotics," literally "against life."
In 1940, a year before Florey and Chain rediscovered penicillin, Waksman initiated a systematic search for these antibiotics, though he could never have anticipated that his own chosen species, the actinomyces, would prove to be the source of so many antibiotics currently in clinical use including streptomycin, chloramphenicol, tetracycline, erythromycin, nystatin, and vancomycin

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: jarhead]
    #1554770 -

this one also has extensive info on the concentrations of actinomyces in different substrates
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010112Krasil/010112krasil.ptIV.8.html

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: mycofile]
    #1556236 -

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: ]
    #1556576 -

enough theory, time to get to work  :wink: 


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comario


"crusaders against emotional poverty"

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: comario2]
    #1556721 -

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: ]
    #1557883 -

In response to mycofile's post -

I believe the thermophilic actinos are the quickest growing, but azures might prefer a combination of thermophilic and mesophilic actinomycetes. And there's no telling (at least until some experimentation is done) what the exact relationship between the bacteria and the azures is. Like suntzu said, it could be any metabolic byproduct or even the dead actinos themselves (as Mr Mushrooms suggests).

Thermophilic actinomycetes are more quickly growing, and culturing these from soil would be a fairly straightforward task for anyone with a flowhood and some PDA plates. :wink:

In fact, I found a link that is basically a lab experiment on how to isolate antibiotic-producing actinos.

http://www.chemheritage.org/EducationalServices/pharm/antibiot/activity/dirt.htm

This is not the one I was thinking of that I found earlier, but something along these lines.

I also think that these guys might be very beneficial in cubensis cultivation (see some of Six Tangos grow logs, the compost he uses is RICH in actinos and he gets some very impressive results). It might just be that during the azures' evolution, it found a way to use the actinos more extensively than the cubensis. Who knows? Someone needs to get on this and start making some cultures. :wink: 

EDIT - Mycofile - that would be awesome if it came to be discovered that the cold temperature is not necessary, only some artificial method of kiling the actinos. Perhaps a deep cold shock around freezing or so for around 24 hrs, then an attempt to fruit at higher temps with a actino-rich substrate. :wink:


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The blue... the blue!!!

Edited by Rustik (05/18/03 02:14 PM)

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1557890 -

OR it could be the antibiotics that the actinos produce that the azures are so fond of..  :wink: That just crossed my mind.


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The blue... the blue!!!

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1557899 -

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: ]
    #1559552 -

I am experimenting with mesophilic Actos right now on B+ cubes grown on Alder (thread in growlog forum) So far the acto inoculation is performing very well in colonizing the chips compared to an uninoculated experiment which contaminated in two days.


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To old for this place

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: whiterasta]
    #1559900 -

Well, if we are expanding the subject to acti's and other species, yes cubes are very fond of them. Straw pasteurized at 140 for 4 hours, (kills fewer acti's than the standard 160 for 1 hr.) and then held at 120 for 24-48 hrs to encourage acti's performs nominally better yield wise than standard preparation of straw. But colonization rates and contam resistance are notably improved. Straw was prepared in a Harris style composter, using it as a steam pasteurizer/acti incubator.

Also of interest is that straw prepared in this manner is much more productive with Pans. than traditionally preped straw. Everybody knows pans can't fight off contams as well as cubes. Encouraging the acti's on the straw gives it more protection against contams and makes it more mycelium specific. I never got more than one flush off of straw with pans before contams set in, but I've seen acti encouraged straw do much better.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: Rustik]
    #1560440 -

I have a few trays im attempting to fruit indoors
at the moment, there going into the fridge every night and spending 8 hours at 5?f then 16 hours at 70 ?f, two were cased with chilled over soaked vermiculite, and one left uncased.
But i have many other trays ready to play with and was
just wondering what maybe a good way to make up an
actinomycete tea?Are they the active part to white button casing?If so do you think if i got some from a local farm and boiled it into a tea, or prehapes cold soaked it and then
use a u.v pond cleaner to kill any badies?



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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: Paid]
    #1560468 -

The only way that I could think of would be to pasturize some compost, and use the leftover liquid from pastuerization to add to your substrate.

Quote:
Are they the active part to white button casing?



I don't know what "white button casing" is.. Sorry.

What I would try is to take one of those casings and stir in some good (pastuerized) compost, mix it in real well, so as to distribute the actinos throughout the casing. After that, who knows.. It would take several tries to finally get some fruits, I'm sure.

Quote:
were cased with chilled over soaked vermiculite, and one left uncased.



This is probably why they won't fruit. They need soil rich in actinos for compost. I would scrape off the verm casing layer and replace with some well-aged wood compost (again, pasteurized), mix it in, then case it again with a thinner layer of the compost. Try soil from a densly wooded area on the uncased one. Keep us posted, Paid - good work on teh casings!

:wink: 


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The blue... the blue!!!

Edited by Rustik (05/19/03 03:11 PM)

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: Rustik]
    #1560505 -

Cool, well i'll leave whats started as is,as its only been going 5 days out the incubator, but i'll start a Psilocybe azurescens
and Psilocybe azurescens tray using your suggested mix then case method
and another of the same two i shall make up a weak tea and dunk for 24 hours.

I forgot to mention that the Psilocybe subaeruginosa above is the only one
i used well rotted 2 year old woodchips, all the others were done with fresh
cut hazel branches, the 2 year old chips colonised much faster than the fresh stuff for me, but then i didnt try Psilocybe azurescens or Psilocybe cyanescens
on the older chips.I will.

I'll keep you updated :-)


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Edited by Paid (05/19/03 03:25 PM)

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: Paid]
    #1560684 -

Thanks Paid - good to see someone experimenting with this info. Start a grow log and keep us informed - link to it in this thread in case anyoen else is interested in seeing any progress made.

Remember - even failure is a good thing when you have a reasonable basis for comparison - I'm interested to see how the azures cased with verm do compared to the casing mixed in with composted chips. :smile: 


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The blue... the blue!!!

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: Paid]
    #1560704 -

Ive been looking up actinomycetes (as id never heard of them)
in an attempt to find a good tea ingredient, and wonder on this

Canna Zym (TM):High quality enzyme preparation for breaking down
(hemi) cellulose and stimulating microlife.

Which i already use in hydroponics and house plants.
And on reading seem to do what actinomycetes are reported to do.
I'll try and find out more about it.Even if it doesnt contain actinomycetes
it maybe useful in there cultivation.


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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: Paid]
    #1560730 -

Canna Zym

Contains more than 15 different enzymes

and actinomycetes are somtimes used in enzyme productionso i just need
to find out if they are used in the production of this product, and i have
a ready made tea :-)

Luckily i have about 5 trays of each lol.


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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: Paid]
    #1560744 -

Paid, the "active" part that is required in button casing is (I believe) a sp. of psudomonas bacteria. But, since button casing can't be sterilized, there is a good chance that acti's would be present in it as they typically survive pasteurization. All soil outside is likely to contain acti's, as would any compost.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: mycofile]
    #1562628 -

what happens to the actis in compost, when the compost is dehydrated, and subsequently re-hydrated, then pasteurized. do the actis revive or are they killed by the dehydration?


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comario


"crusaders against emotional poverty"

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: comario2]
    #1562689 -

Good question....Maybe one best answered by 6T


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: comario2]
    #1562718 -

They form spores, so I guess drying won?t eliminate them.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: Anno]
    #1563066 -

And if you pasteurize, the thermophilic actinos will survive. I think the temp that they are most happy with is 120F, this temp is nominal for thermophilic actinomycete growth.

Just in case you wanted to know. :smile: 


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The blue... the blue!!!

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: Rustik]
    #1563106 -

well, they'll "survive" pasteurization, if they are alive to start out. anno's comment makes sense. 6T, what do you say?


--------------------
comario


"crusaders against emotional poverty"

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: comario2]
    #1563129 -

I'm sure 6T will agree with Anno, since he's the MAN. :smile:

Quote:
They form spores, so I guess drying won?t eliminate them.


Which I'm assuming means that if the moisture levels get too low, actinos form endospores (a common behavior amongst bacteria). The endospores are more likely to survive higher temperatures, as well as certain chemicals that might have destroyed their cellular counterparts.



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The blue... the blue!!!

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: Rustik]
    #1563158 -

makes sense. 6T?


--------------------
comario


"crusaders against emotional poverty"

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: Rustik]
    #1717381 -




I did a wood chip soup and got a few pins :-)
Read a little more on it hear :-)


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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1717765 -

It would seem that a casing layer high in actinomycetes would be good for mushrooms, indoor or outdoor.

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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #2426932 -

>or instead of wood compost perhaps topsoil from a densly wooded area

This seems to work, read http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/25150


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes) [Re: Paid]
    #2431336 -

paid its been a long time since we have talked... PM me we'll pick up where we left off!

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation > Mushroom Cultivation Archive > Outdoor Cultivation
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