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OfflineRustik
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P. azurescens Cultivation (symbiosis w/actinomycetes)
    #1549173 - 05/14/03 09:45 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I've got a question concerning our little azurescens buddies that are difficult to cultivate indoors...

Why??  Wish Anno would read this post. I'm just wondering why the environmental conditions are so hard to reproduces for azures.

Fruiting temps need to be around 50F if I've read correctly. Humidity would be a problem at that temperature, but one could easily circumvent that particular one using a vaporizor/other humidifier.

I know they don't have a symbiotic relationship with trees (like A. muscaria), since they can be grown in outdoor beds. Spawn is easy enough to generate. So why is it that one couldn't simply put a tub of spawn cased with a standard casing mix and fruited in a fridge using some manner of humidification? I do realize that temps inside a standard refrigerator range from 34-38 degrees F normally, so you would have to get a different refrigerator (perhaps a "mini' fridge) and raise the temp to 50F.

Anno, Joshua - I know both of you have done azures in the past, and I believe that Anno has attempted an indoor cultivation with limited results. Hopefully you might shed some insight as to why these guys hate the indoors so much!  :smirk:

Peace

PS - if this belongs in the General Questions forum, please move. I think this is the correct forum though. :wink: 


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Edited by Rustik (05/16/03 02:40 PM)


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OfflineRustik
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1549244 - 05/14/03 10:13 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum4&Number=85673&Forum=CatSearch-1&Words=azurescens%20indoors&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=85669&Search=true#Post85673

I found this post, as well as some other indoor logs. What I have come up with so far (without any feedback :frown: ):

1) Gas exchange is CRITICAL. Azures require a lot of air exchange, which I believe could be provided by fanning more often than you would normally fan P. cubensis. Or you could set up a fan on a timer to "freshen" the air every hour or so.

2) Azures require a humid environment with lots of gas exchange, and mother nature is the best at providing BOTH conditions simultaneously. However, it is NOT impossible indoors, just requires a more expensive setup (or at least some sort of humidifier, perlite doesn't seem to provide the correct amount of humidity due to low temps)

3) Variations in temperature (day/night) are important. One must lower the temperature around 10-12F for several hours a day to simulate night. A timer and a little electrical expertise, and a fridge could be rigged to provide just the right temperature fluctuation.

4) Apparently the Nitrogen to Oxygen ratio in the casing layer is also important, at least according to the post linked above. Azures prefer a higher nitrogen to oxygen ratio, whereas P. cubensis prefer a higher oxygen to nitrogen ratio. Nitrogen can be easily procured if you need to raise nitrogen levels to initiate primordia formation.. Or, the post refers to decomposers known as "actinomycetes" that produce ammonia and nitrogen. Using outdoor soil or compost as an "upper" casing layer would seem to work. Not completely sure on this though, more info would be appreciated.

I know I'm missing something, because one could easily accomodate any/all of the above requirements..  I don't know if anyone knows what it is for sure, but if it's something simple, please enlighten me. I'm not a dumbass, so if I'm leaving something obvious out, don't bash me. :wink: 


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Edited by Rustik (05/14/03 10:27 PM)


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Offlinerealrasta
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1549333 - 05/14/03 10:53 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

im with you on that. i have never found another reason this wouldnt work, besides the obvious, an expensive setup. im tryin to by a mini fridge. drill two wholes in them, for tubing plug the tubing untill air exchange/humidifying goes on i mean you would think it would work, i dunno try it


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OfflineNFNF
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1549336 - 05/14/03 10:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Try AMC.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1549706 - 05/15/03 01:42 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Seems that you already know more about the indoor cultivation than I do.

I also think that P. azurescens requires(prefers?) certain microorganisms, bacteria, that help induce fruiting.


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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1549818 - 05/15/03 02:08 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I've never attempted inddor cultivation and have only completed one outdoor bed.

Interestingly enough, I spawned in late June and harvested in November of the same year.

The fruiting did occur under a rhododendron. I made more than one patch and only the patch under the living rhodie fruited. The other rhodie died and the patch under it did not fruit.

As far as advice, it sounds like you might not need any. If you attempt to duplicate the fruiting parameters as closely as possible you are doing about as much as you can.

The mycorhizal and bacterial inducing of pinning are only speculations, but ideas to consider.

I wish you a good fruiting experience and look forward to seeing or hearing of your progress.

Joshua


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Joshua]
    #1550070 - 05/15/03 03:24 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)



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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: zeronio]
    #1550240 - 05/15/03 06:30 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The so called outdoor-indoor success, one reason more why I believe some microorganisms are in play.


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OfflineRustik
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Anno]
    #1551472 - 05/15/03 04:44 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, that particular person started the cultivation outdoors and moved it indoors Into his cold cellar.

If microorganisms play an important role in the life cycle of azures ( IF ), then it may be wise to use soil from their natural habitat as a casing layer. It may very well be the ONLY way to do it successfully.

A good experiment would be to case one subject with whatever casing material you prefer, and then case another subject with natural outdoor soil from their natural habitat. I believe this side-by-side comparison would be extremely valuable and could provide the answers I have been looking for.

I may very well take a shot at this in the near future. Only setback would be the refrigeration, I would definitely have to procure one of those mini-fridges, and those babies aren't cheap. I believe my parents may have one sitting idle back home, a nice one too - I may just see if I can't get that from 'em! If so, then this little experiment may begin very soon. If/when I start it up, I'll put a report in the grow log forums. I've got some nifty ideas kicking around, and I'm pretty sure I could simulate a decent microenvironment with around 80-90% accuracy.

Another thing - Actinomycetes are found in pretty much ALL soil, so it shouldn't matter what soil you use. :smile:

Peace, and thanks for the feedback - some interesting bits of info here. I'm beginning to feel very strongly that microorganisms in the casing layer (soil) play an important role. Perhaps they put off more N2 during the cold season, which prompts the mycelial body to form primordia..  We shall see, hopefully!  :wink: 


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Edited by Rustik (05/15/03 06:02 PM)


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Offlinefugu
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1551494 - 05/15/03 04:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

thanks for the info


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OfflineRustik
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1551559 - 05/15/03 05:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

AHA!! I think I have got it. I really do.

Ok, Anno and Joshua should be able to back me up on this. Though I have never personally done an outdoor azure bed (the climate in my area would not support them), I believe it is correct that most often fruits will form towards the edges of the bed (anywhere from the very edge to 15 cm inside the perimeter).  Read the following:

http://www.digitalseed.com/composter/biology/actinomycetes.html

Actinomycetes are found most abundantly toward the outsides of compost piles (i.e., your spawn bed) right when the bed is "ripe" (during the early stages of compost, before the spawn has been spent). They love cellulose and hard plant matter (i.e. hardwood shavings :smile: ).

Based on the information from that site (albeit a small amount) as well as other sources, I have formed a theory:

Actinomycetes and relatives thereof begin breaking down the plant matter in a spawn bed either immediately or very soon after the bed has been established with spawn. This is normally done during the warmer months of the year, allowing the actinomycetes to slowly work on the edges of the bed. When the cold weather hits, the spawn has been broken down a bit from the decomposition. The mycelium, which has been further colonizing the substrate throughout this period, spurred by the weather change begins to form primordia. The reason the primordia forms on the outside of the bed is because the actinomycetes A) are producing nitrogen as a byproduct which is inducing primordia formation around the edges of the bed or B) have broken down the cellulose of the plant matter into a form that is more readily decomposed by the mycelium, and this burst of extra food plus the change in weather causes primordia formation.

OR it could be a combination of the two. However, I am almost 100% convinced now that the actinomycetes play a very key role in the fruiting of P. azurescens. If only I had the capacity to test my theory today!! :smile: Anno or Josh - I urge you to pursue this theory, as I currently am not able to do so myself. I hope this information has been helpful!

One other thing I have thought of that could prove to be a very good way of testing the theory that actinomycetes play a role in fruiting:

Stir up your outdoor bed once or twice before it's time to fruit. Mix soil in with it good. If the actinomycetes establish themselves in the middle of the bed, as well as along the outer edges, you would see a very big difference in growth - primordia forming all over the bed rather than around the edges of it.


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The blue... the blue!!!


Edited by Rustik (05/15/03 06:13 PM)


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OfflineRustik
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1551573 - 05/15/03 05:08 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

More info - according to THIS website:

http://www.kuleuven.ac.be/gih/actinom.htm

the actinomycetes are also a slow growing species, which might explain why, although the bed has been sitting there for months, the fruiting still occurs around the edges - because these little symbiotic bacteria simply don't spread very quickly.


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The blue... the blue!!!


Edited by Rustik (05/15/03 06:10 PM)


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OfflineRustik
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1551625 - 05/15/03 05:23 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Even more info supporting the actinomycetes theory:

Quote:

from the pictures ive seen it seems that azures seem like to grow up from underneath a log or at the side of a box. i suspect they like to have something like that where they can gather their forces or maybe they like the support?
i think im gonna go throw a big branch on my cyan patch to see what happens...




This was a quote from YouInfoIt from 11/28/02. Honestly don't know how much this guy knows about outdoor fruitings, but this sounds about right. If the mushies are seen growing from underneath a log/side of a box, it could possibly be because the actinomycetes have already established themselves in that particular area, so that's where fruits form first.

Quote:

young azure and cyan patches typically only fruit from the outside edge of the patch. try upping the air exchange for larger caps.




I know these are unreliable sources, but I've seen this repeated again and again. This was a post by cyan-shaman on 11/21/02. Again, this supports the theory that actinomycetes are either directly or indirectly responsible for pinning.

Both of these posts came from the link above:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Growlog&Number=1020073&Forum=All_Forums&Words=azurescens&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=1020070&Search=true#Post1020073

Hope this helps someone get a good indoor tek together. That would be the greatest thing since the PF Tek!!!

Also thought of something else:

Improving an outdoor azure patch (UNTESTED): This is a bit time consuming, and takes a long time to prepare, but once you have done it once, you can turn it into a cycle alternating beds. Take a few big bags of hardwood chips or sawdust and prepare a bed withOUT spawn, ONLY the hardwood sawdust/chips. Let this sit for an entire year, tilling/mixing it once a month to spread the actinomycetes througout the bed. Then, when the time comes around the next year, go ahead and prepare your bed as you would normally with azure spawn. If you set up two alternating beds, you should be able to have a bed prepared for each season. :smile:

This could possibly drastically increase flush size/frequency, but like I said, it is as of yet untested.


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The blue... the blue!!!


Edited by Rustik (05/15/03 06:09 PM)


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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1551828 - 05/15/03 06:28 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Some very good research there Rustik.  I can think of no rebuttal :smile:
It makes sense; TMC has pictures of 'perfect compost' that has actinomycetes running all through it.  What's interesting to me, though, is that if this association is proven, it is an association with PINNING and not colonization.  Pure, fresh, sterilized wood is colonized by cyan/azure spawn very quickly [if prepared correctly anyway].  The positive symbioses associated with pinning is most often with cased mushrooms, ala Pseudomonas spp. and Agaricus.  With mushrooms that 'don't require a casing' it would be interesting to identify a bacterial factor [are actino's still called bacteria?].  Interesting idea there.  I recently added a big bag of good well-aged compost to my cyan bed here, just because it 'felt right' :wink:

**oops, just a second, comp problems. 


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OfflineRustik
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Suntzu]
    #1551875 - 05/15/03 06:37 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Good luck wth that compost :smile:

What I'm thinking is that the pinning may not be directly related to the presence of actinomycetes. They may serve a more indirect purpose. By raising the nitrogen levels of the soil, they create a very desirable environment for primordia formation, as well as a rich source of energy. I believe the weather sends the signal that it's time to start fruiting, but the azures simply will NOT fruit unless the nitrogen levels are high enough. That's my guess, anyway.

And you watch - I bet you that your composted cyan bed explodes this season! :smile: At least I hope so. :tongue: Cyans and azures are closely related, so IMO what will work with one will probably work with the other.


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The blue... the blue!!!


Edited by Rustik (05/15/03 06:41 PM)


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1551901 - 05/15/03 06:42 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I agree 100%.  Some metabolic byproduct, some elusive fatty acid, who the hell knows.
Some local hunters I know [heh heh] have noticed that places that have been torn up in August still fruit incredibly well and evenly come October.



This one had better do better than last year's :laugh: 


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OfflineRustik
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Suntzu]
    #1551934 - 05/15/03 06:49 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Some local hunters I know [heh heh] have noticed that places that have been torn up in August still fruit incredibly well and evenly come October.




Further supporting the theory :smile:

I'm going to do some more research tonight and see if I can't narrow it down to a few specific species. The term "actinomycetes" includes a fairly broad range of decomposers, but it is my understanding that the various species work together in yet another symbiotic relationship, so I'm not sure that it would even be possible to narrow it down any further than the general term above. However, further research is warrented regardless, I will update this thread as I find new information.

Peace

EDIT - changed thread title, this thread has gone in a new, very promising direction and the name should reflect it :smile:


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The blue... the blue!!!


Edited by Rustik (05/15/03 07:19 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: Rustik]
    #1552040 - 05/15/03 07:26 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

this is very interesting...I've always wondered myself why azurescens are so hard too cultivate indoors....best of luck and keep us informed on your progress


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Offlinehermes3
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: realrasta]
    #1554024 - 05/16/03 02:35 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The use of a casing from the adjoining forest litter and topsoil is interesting. A foaf grows azures and cynans. He covers his cyans with a layer of straw with excellent results. He has cased his azures with the surrounding soil near his beds on one occasion and with straw on another. Casing with soil resulted in ample flushes while the straw saw only sparse mushrooms. He attributed the sparseness to a particularly harsh winter but after reading this thread I expect the problem could in fact be the casing.


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OfflineRustik
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Re: P. azurescens Indoor Cultivation [Re: hermes3]
    #1554040 - 05/16/03 02:39 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Try casing with aged dung and/or wood compost (or instead of wood compost perhaps topsoil from a densly wooded area).. I imagine we will begin to see some very nice outdoor patches in a few months! :laugh: 


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