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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14115691 - 03/13/11 06:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You could be right but major players want to win big and control the world if possible. If the us supports Israel and not the Arabs there's plenty of reason for it. My guess is large corporations that may actually control us policy want control of world resources.  It's all a big power and money  game imo. :shrug:  And it's going to continue no matter who has the upper hand.

On the other hand there is no real need for us to give aid to israel. It's not like we need their help. As Zappa sez, the terrorists are completely inept as a threat.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (03/13/11 07:57 PM)

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your business? [Re: Icelander]
    #14116175 - 03/13/11 08:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
The US doesn't dilly dally, It fully supports it.




I meant with regard to the "peace process"

------

Icelander the last person who tried to stand up to Israel was JFK who wanted them to stop developing nuclear weapons in secret (without being a NPT signatory). The response was the formation of AIPAC, a lobby group, which basically served to silence criticism of Israeli policy and secure aid which was lucrative to US military industries. Basically they did what any wealthy enterprise who wants their way in Washington.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
    #15456779 - 12/02/11 09:57 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I'm aware that this is an old post, but I have recently begun researching the history of Zionism and am interested in the subject right now.

JohnM, A. Yes, the ideology of Zionism harms the native population of the Palestine/Israel area along with neighboring nations. The Zionists have been immigrating there for less than 100 hundred years, and since 1948, while they were gradually encroaching further and further into Palestinian territory, they have harmed many people. Anyone who is aware of A: what a map of the middle east looks like, B: The influence of Zionist lobbies in U.S. politics, C: Zionist Ownership of media and finance in U.S., would come to the conclusion that U.S. military interests in the middle east serve powerful Zionists.

B. Zionism technically means supporting a national homeland for Jewish people. One has to ask themselves, if Jews have a right to a homeland, do they Palestinians also have the same right to a national homeland, or don't they? There are many Jews who are opposed to Zionism claiming that the Torah tells them they are in exile from their homeland and are not supposed to return until the Messiah has returned. So any Jews claiming that it is their religious right or duty to violently occupy the land is actually going against what their religion teaches. The rabbinical Jews denounce an ideology that is nationalistic, materialistic and antithetical in it's nature. 

If you are willing to ignore the religious bias, the book "The Synagogue of Satan" by Andrew Carrington Hitchcock actually is just a detailed historical timeline of the Rothschild family and their connection to Israel. The details in the book are generally unknown to the masses, yet are all verifiable through open source research such as government records, encyclopedias etc.

And for anybody who is inclined to adopt the world-concept portrayed in the Zionist-owned mainstream media networks: the words of Israeli Prime Ministers frequently contradict such nonsense,

David Ben Gurion:

"We must expel Arabs and take their places." -1937 Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985

"There has been anti-semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
Quoted by Nahuum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif P. 121-122

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the plave of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the plave of Jitba; Kibbutz Sarid in the plave of Huneifis; and Kefar Yeneshua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-David Ben Gurion, quoted in Le Paraddoxe Juif, 1978 p.99

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."

-David Ben Gurion (p. 855-856 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben Gurion)

Gold Meir: (notice the following contradiction)

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."

-Golda Meir, statement to the Sunday Times, 15 June 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."

-Golda Meir, March 8, 1969

Yitzhak Rabin:

"We walked outside, Ben Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done with the Palestinian people?' Ben Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'"

-Yitzhak Rabin, Rabin memoirs, published in New York Times, 23 October 1979

Menachem Begin:

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

_Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts'", New Statesman, June 25, 1982

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for ever."

-Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

Yizhak Shamir:

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."

-Yizhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

Ehud Barak:

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more...."

-Ehud Barak, Jerusalem post August 30,2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."

-Ehud Barak, Associated Press, November 16 2000

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."

-Ehud Barak's response to Gedeon Levy, a columnist for the Ha-aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

Ariel Sharon:

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time.The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours....Everything we don't grab will go to them."

-Ariel Sharon, addressing a meeting of militants from the Tsomet Party, Agency France Presse, November 15, 1998

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the state of Israel on trial."

-Ariel Sharon, March 25, 2001, BBC News Online

Benjamin Netanyahu:

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."

-Benjamin Netanyahu speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israel journal Hotam, November 24, 1989









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Edited by LightShedder (12/02/11 10:13 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15458045 - 12/03/11 08:17 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

If you look at the history of any country you will find similar goings on in the creation of that country. America comes to mind.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #15458379 - 12/03/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If you look at the history of any country you will find similar goings on in the creation of that country. America comes to mind.



They all come to mind.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15458575 - 12/03/11 11:14 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

That's what I said basically.  I used America as an example due to familiarity and so as not to imply I'm silly enough to  point the finger everywhere else but at myself. 


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/03/11 11:15 AM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460111 - 12/03/11 05:04 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LightShedder said:
I'm aware that this is an old post, but I have recently begun researching the history of Zionism and am interested in the subject right now.

JohnM, A. Yes, the ideology of Zionism harms the native population of the Palestine/Israel area along with neighboring nations. The Zionists have been immigrating there for less than 100 hundred years, and since 1948, while they were gradually encroaching further and further into Palestinian territory, they have harmed many people. Anyone who is aware of A: what a map of the middle east looks like, B: The influence of Zionist lobbies in U.S. politics, C: Zionist Ownership of media and finance in U.S., would come to the conclusion that U.S. military interests in the middle east serve powerful Zionists.

B. Zionism technically means supporting a national homeland for Jewish people. One has to ask themselves, if Jews have a right to a homeland, do they Palestinians also have the same right to a national homeland, or don't they? There are many Jews who are opposed to Zionism claiming that the Torah tells them they are in exile from their homeland and are not supposed to return until the Messiah has returned. So any Jews claiming that it is their religious right or duty to violently occupy the land is actually going against what their religion teaches. The rabbinical Jews denounce an ideology that is nationalistic, materialistic and antithetical in it's nature. 

If you are willing to ignore the religious bias, the book "The Synagogue of Satan" by Andrew Carrington Hitchcock actually is just a detailed historical timeline of the Rothschild family and their connection to Israel. The details in the book are generally unknown to the masses, yet are all verifiable through open source research such as government records, encyclopedias etc.

And for anybody who is inclined to adopt the world-concept portrayed in the Zionist-owned mainstream media networks: the words of Israeli Prime Ministers frequently contradict such nonsense,







How does this post address the point?

Whether or not jews have a right to a homeland, whether or not jews have been moving in to palestine, whether or not any of this crap, it doesn't neccesarily follow that Israel or zionism is harming anyone's legitimate rights.

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: johnm214]
    #15460225 - 12/03/11 05:33 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Palestinians rights? Also, if one believes as I do that American soldiers are risking their lives for the sake of Zionism, which doesn't serve American national interests, than it's at least affecting them somehow or another.

But specifically, in 1948 Palestinians had an internationally recognized legal right to a majority of what is Israel today. How has this turned into occupied Israel land? Through violent invasion from the zionists/Israelis. Is this not a clear violation of the Palestinians legitimate rights to you John?


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #15460247 - 12/03/11 05:41 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If you look at the history of any country you will find similar goings on in the creation of that country. America comes to mind.




Difference: if the natives of America fought back today and said we've been here forever, I wouldn't dare claim that I am chosen by god to be here as the Israelis are today. On top of this, if we did make this claim, and then through manipulating world governments by controlling currency, we involved other unrelated nations in the conflict, I doubt anyone would try and defend our actions. This is what Israel is doing. If you follow the money you find that the owners of all central banks in the world are families that have been deeply involved with founding modern Israel. Balfour declaration....


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460366 - 12/03/11 06:07 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LightShedder said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
If you look at the history of any country you will find similar goings on in the creation of that country. America comes to mind.




Difference: if the natives of America fought back today and said we've been here forever, I wouldn't dare claim that I am chosen by god to be here as the Israelis are today. On top of this, if we did make this claim, and then through manipulating world governments by controlling currency, we involved other unrelated nations in the conflict, I doubt anyone would try and defend our actions. This is what Israel is doing. If you follow the money you find that the owners of all central banks in the world are families that have been deeply involved with founding modern Israel. Balfour declaration....



:rofl2:

There are less than 20 million Jews in the whole world.  If you think that tiny number of people can control the 6 billion then you clearly must believe they are superior beings.  Bow down to your overlords.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460502 - 12/03/11 06:33 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LightShedder said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
If you look at the history of any country you will find similar goings on in the creation of that country. America comes to mind.




Difference: if the natives of America fought back today and said we've been here forever, I wouldn't dare claim that I am chosen by god to be here as the Israelis are today. On top of this, if we did make this claim, and then through manipulating world governments by controlling currency, we involved other unrelated nations in the conflict, I doubt anyone would try and defend our actions. This is what Israel is doing. If you follow the money you find that the owners of all central banks in the world are families that have been deeply involved with founding modern Israel. Balfour declaration....





You wouldn't dare claim it because you already have and occupy stolen land.  Lets see you give your share back now that you know it's stolen. :thumbup: Otherwise I'd quietly back down due to the hypocrisy factory. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/03/11 06:34 PM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460666 - 12/03/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LightShedder said:
Palestinians rights?




No, anyone's rights.  Whether someone is from Palestine or not seems besides the point of whether Israel's existance or policy and/or Zionism is causing harm to someone's legitimate rights.

Quote:


Also, if one believes as I do that American soldiers are risking their lives for the sake of Zionism, which doesn't serve American national interests, than it's at least affecting them somehow or another.




Yes, but do American soldiers have a legitimate right not to risk their lives "for the sake of Zionism"?  I don't think so, and hence the point is moot even if true.  US forces are staffed by volunteers and they agree to be subject to the orders of the Dept of Defense.

Quote:

But specifically, in 1948 Palestinians had an internationally recognized legal right to a majority of what is Israel today. How has this turned into occupied Israel land? Through violent invasion from the zionists/Israelis. Is this not a clear violation of the Palestinians legitimate rights to you John?




I don't think there was a "Palestine" in 1948 other than the British Mandate, and that certainly wasn't to be given wholly to a single party.  As I understand it, the mandate was to be split according the agreement through which two states would be formed.

As for the Israeli occupation of land that is not granted to them through the UN agreement, I don't see how that is necessarily an issue.  Israel was attacked by neighboring forces from those lands given to the arab state and Israel subsequently gained control of those lands in a lawful war.  Thus, to my understanding, the mere fact additional lands are occupied is irrelevant.

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #15460691 - 12/03/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

There'sno hypocrisy because the analogy is not the same. The main point here is, if the whole world is expected to abide by the rule of interior colonization, why has Israel been allowed immunity to this for 60 years? Secondly, let's agree that Israel and Zionism both aren't any of our business. Why are we not neutral than in regards to the conflict? To claim that we are would indicate a high degree of ignorance. I'm more concerned over the one-sided biased stance among American media/public opinion. My question is, why are we involving our military in the issue?

Zappa: I certainly made no claim that 20 million Jews control 6 billion people. Not sure how you came out with that assumption. How about presenting evidence to counter the facts I mentioned like Balfour declaration, Rothschild history with modern-Israel, or go through the timeline I cited earlier and refute the world-concept presented there in. Or you could misrepresent my position and resort to slander if you please.


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460706 - 12/03/11 07:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

"I don't think there was a "Palestine" in 1948 other than the British Mandate, and that certainly wasn't to be given wholly to a single party.  As I understand it, the mandate was to be split according the agreement through which two states would be formed.

As for the Israeli occupation of land that is not granted to them through the UN agreement, I don't see how that is necessarily an issue.  Israel was attacked by neighboring forces from those lands given to the arab state and Israel subsequently gained control of those lands in a lawful war.  Thus, to my understanding, the mere fact additional lands are occupied is irrelevant."

Palestine indeed was a nation before England illegally handed over to Lord Rothschild in the Balfour declaration. And no, if you want to claim that Israel gained that land post-1948 through lawful war, the burden of proof is on you. And no, proof doesn't mean the story as told by youth-freemason alumni Walter Cronkite. http://www.demolay.org/aboutdemolay/


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Edited by LightShedder (12/03/11 07:14 PM)

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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460788 - 12/03/11 07:22 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I believe the war he (John) was referring to is the 6 Day War.  From my perspective Israel captured land pretty fairly in that war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_days_war

Edit: Nevermind, I assume he is talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

Also a fine war imo

Edited by Chespirito (12/03/11 07:27 PM)

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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460793 - 12/03/11 07:24 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LightShedder said:
There'sno hypocrisy because the analogy is not the same. The main point here is, if the whole world is expected to abide by the rule of interior colonization, why has Israel been allowed immunity to this for 60 years?



Ha, luckily you were grandfathered in otherwise the hypocrisy might show.  Phew right?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460812 - 12/03/11 07:27 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The analogy is apt.

Why are we not neutral than in regards to the conflict?

Because they are a friendly country (supposedly) to American interests in the Middle East and would side with us in any war or military action we engage in there.  That should be pretty obvious.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/03/11 07:28 PM)

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Chespirito]
    #15460816 - 12/03/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Regardless of the time line, the analogy is not the same as I've already explained. If you guys had an accurate world-concept especially with regards to the middle east, you would understand how the comparison of Israel vs. Palestine against Europeans vs. Native Americans is an inaccurate one, regardless of the time line.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: LightShedder]
    #15460823 - 12/03/11 07:29 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You have yet to explain this huge difference imo.  We took land and they took land. In the future it will happen with other countries.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (12/03/11 07:30 PM)

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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: Zionism, Israel- What's the problem? Is it any of your buisness? [Re: Icelander]
    #15460825 - 12/03/11 07:29 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The analogy is apt.

Why are we not neutral than in regards to the conflict?

Because they are a friendly country (supposedly) to American interests in the Middle East and would side with us in any war or military action we engage in there.  That should be pretty obvious.




Umm, the situation is a lot more complex than this. History didn't start on 9/11.


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