|
 blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
 finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion 
#15451721 - 12/01/11 08:31 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
i just finished reading the pathology of normalcy by erich fromm. in the book fromm wrights about the dual human needs of A. having a cultural reference point and B. having a source of devotion which are both offered by religion or in absence of religion the state. my question is how are we supposed to find a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion in a world of dogmatic religious sects and stupid ideologies? to avoid narcissism i don't think we can push these needs onto the self or the family so what else can we do?
--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
|
 LayinUp
Crush yo rating like yo butthole
Registered: 04/14/11
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Between the permafrost an... 
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15451749 - 12/01/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
We should be devoted to each other, and our planet.
--------------------
Escape the box.
|
blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: LayinUp]
#15451816 - 12/01/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
each other i can agree about but as for the planet check out this post i made recently http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15450302
--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15452025 - 12/01/11 09:41 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
blingbling said:
i just finished reading the pathology of normalcy by erich fromm. in the book fromm wrights about the dual human needs of A. having a cultural reference point and B. having a source of devotion which are both offered by religion or in absence of religion the state. my question is how are we supposed to find a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion in a world of dogmatic religious sects and stupid ideologies? to avoid narcissism i don't think we can push these needs onto the self or the family so what else can we do?
*OC stands and places hand over heart*
I pledge allegiance to The Shroomery...
--------------------
|
dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 5,219
Loc: Being a burden
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15452400 - 12/01/11 11:08 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
blingbling said:
i just finished reading the pathology of normalcy by erich fromm. in the book fromm wrights about the dual human needs of A. having a cultural reference point and B. having a source of devotion which are both offered by religion or in absence of religion the state.
A and B don't necessarily have to be parts of the same thing. I think our whole lives are cultural reference points. Everything doesn't require devotion and with some things there shouldn't be devotion. It's a choice. I agree with him that the dual need exists though.
Quote:
my question is how are we supposed to find a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion in a world of dogmatic religious sects and stupid ideologies?
By finding something that isn't dogmatic religious or a stupid ideology. We have to have something or else we end up with nothing. It's all symbols.
Quote:
to avoid narcissism i don't think we can push these needs onto the self or the family so what else can we do
What are you defining the self as here? I thinks its life itself, so I don't see how we can't push it on the self. And I'm not sure why pushing them on our parents is bad? They're a reference point and devotion is a sign that they're something positive for you.
--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"A room without books is like a body without a soul." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15452827 - 12/02/11 01:39 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
blingbling said:
i just finished reading the pathology of normalcy by erich fromm. in the book fromm wrights about the dual human needs of A. having a cultural reference point and B. having a source of devotion which are both offered by religion or in absence of religion the state. my question is how are we supposed to find a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion in a world of dogmatic religious sects and stupid ideologies? to avoid narcissism i don't think we can push these needs onto the self or the family so what else can we do?
The solo warriors way as portrayed by Carlos Castaneda. It works if you do.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 765
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15452927 - 12/02/11 02:43 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It depends what you are looking for. If you have your own cultural preferences, then seek them out. If you are simply 'not sure where you belong', then just keep searching and dont settle for the things you disagree with. I always reccomend moving away from a town or state or whatever if you are searching.
Like Icelander is saying.. i assume... there are great rewards to be found by not placing to much emphasis on culture, rather see it as you against. or within, the world. In being self reliant, the rewards come by way of not having to submit to a higher authority. The only authority is life and the needs you must meet to survive and acheive your ends.
But, some people are more sociable.. haha. Perhaps find a cultural subgroup. There are subcultures for just about anyone. Just try and find out what it is you personally enjoy and go with it.
Or just pick and choose. You are under no obligation to 'be' anything specific. You can change with the seasons and just follow your hearts every whim.
In terms of devotion, I personally think that implies effort. You devote yourself to something because of the rewards that come with time. You could devote yourself to self reliance.. get off the grid, generate your own power, grow some of your own food, learn to hunt, or fish, identify wild edible plants and mushrooms, learn how to live in various landscapes. This is probably one of the most useful and rewarding things you can devote yourself to. Not to mention, if you actually care about your impact on the world, this is probably the most genuine way to be. A far cry from your average eco conscious consumer, who chooses to recycle their waste and calls it a job done.
It all depends on what you enjoy. If you like music, go underground, be a musician, contribute to your local music community. If its art, same thing. Self sufficiency means more than meets the eye.... It means not putting all the responcibility and by extension, all the power, in someone elese hands. It means getting out there and contributing to culture.
Whatever you do, dont just be a consumer of culture. Everyone has something to offer, and the right people are out there, just waiting to share it all with you.
--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
|
blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Desert Elf]
#15452951 - 12/02/11 03:04 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
i just realized that the answer to my question is in a quote from Bertrand Russel's a free mans worship: The life of Man is a long march through the night, surrounded by invisible foes, tortured by weariness and pain, towards a goal that few can hope to reach, and where none may tarry long. One by one, as they march, our comrades vanish from our sight, seized by the silent orders of omnipotent Death. Very brief is the time in which we can help them, in which their happiness or misery is decided. Be it ours to shed sunshine on their path, to lighten their sorrows by the balm of sympathy, to give them the pure joy of a never-tiring affection, to strengthen failing courage, to instill faith in hours of despair. Let us not weigh in grudging scales their merits and demerits, but let us think only of their need -- of the sorrows, the difficulties, perhaps the blindnesses, that make the misery of their lives let us remember that they are fellow-sufferers in the same darkness, actors in the same tragedy as oursevles.
--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
|
 Buster_Brown
L'une
Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,691
Last seen: 3 minutes, 13 seconds
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15453045 - 12/02/11 04:18 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
blingbling said:
.. to avoid narcissism i don't think we can push these needs onto the self ..
"The theosophic idea is that everything is an expression of the
Self--or whatever other name one may choose to give to that immanent
unknown reality which forever hides behind all phenomenal life--but
because, immersed as we are in materiality, our chief avenue of
knowledge is sense perception, a more exact expression of the
theosophic idea would be: Everything is the expression of the Self
in terms of sense. Art, accordingly, is the expression of the Self in
terms of sense."- Claude Fayette Bragdon
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Desert Elf]
#15453386 - 12/02/11 07:22 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I always reccomend moving away from a town or state or whatever if you are searching.
Powerful medicine here
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15453395 - 12/02/11 07:24 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
blingbling said:
i just realized that the answer to my question is in a quote from Bertrand Russel's a free mans worship: The life of Man is a long march through the night, surrounded by invisible foes, tortured by weariness and pain, towards a goal that few can hope to reach, and where none may tarry long. One by one, as they march, our comrades vanish from our sight, seized by the silent orders of omnipotent Death. Very brief is the time in which we can help them, in which their happiness or misery is decided. Be it ours to shed sunshine on their path, to lighten their sorrows by the balm of sympathy, to give them the pure joy of a never-tiring affection, to strengthen failing courage, to instill faith in hours of despair. Let us not weigh in grudging scales their merits and demerits, but let us think only of their need -- of the sorrows, the difficulties, perhaps the blindnesses, that make the misery of their lives let us remember that they are fellow-sufferers in the same darkness, actors in the same tragedy as oursevles.
Great quote, one can only teach what they know and give advice based on that experience. If that flies in the face of what others consider proper, remember no one has to take your advice and as Mosche Feldenkrais reminds us, "If you have many ideas, you will have good ideas"
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Buster_Brown]
#15453399 - 12/02/11 07:26 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Buster_Brown said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
.. to avoid narcissism i don't think we can push these needs onto the self ..
"The theosophic idea is that everything is an expression of the
Self--or whatever other name one may choose to give to that immanent
unknown reality which forever hides behind all phenomenal life--but
because, immersed as we are in materiality, our chief avenue of
knowledge is sense perception, a more exact expression of the
theosophic idea would be: Everything is the expression of the Self
in terms of sense. Art, accordingly, is the expression of the Self in
terms of sense."- Claude Fayette Bragdon
Lost of great input here. I wait for these threads.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Mnboardin
Stranger
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 767
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15455909 - 12/02/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Berty wrote that? I didn't know Berty had a little Nietzsche inside of him.
--------------------
|
Mnboardin
Stranger
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 767
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Buster_Brown]
#15455928 - 12/02/11 06:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
So, in other words livesd experience is meaningful lived experience of God?
--------------------
|
explosiveoxygen
Prophet of TGMM
Registered: 07/10/09
Posts: 1,255
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Mnboardin]
#15456247 - 12/02/11 08:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Reference point?
Worship?
If those two questions are related in concept then I support neither of them. There is only you and the universe. You are the universe but to take this concept fully to it's logical limits is to not really care for your survival. Some of us have a plan to live forever...
 
Worship, mentors, idols, inspirations... all of these devalue you not in the ego loss self but in terms of your mind being important. There is a big difference between learning from and considering advice, and putting others on a value higher than ourselves.
Know yourself and build yourself, don't let anyone else define what it is that you are or why it is that you live.
|
Buster_Brown
L'une
Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,691
Last seen: 3 minutes, 13 seconds
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Mnboardin]
#15457677 - 12/03/11 04:46 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mnboardin said:
So, in other words livesd experience is meaningful lived experience of God?
As patent exhibition, I presume.
|
blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Mnboardin]
#15457692 - 12/03/11 04:56 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Mnboardin said:
So, in other words livesd experience is meaningful lived experience of God?
that's not really what i got from it 
--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
|
cognitivebias
Stranger
Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 61
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15457872 - 12/03/11 06:55 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Have you read any Rollo May? If you like Fromm, he's right up your alley, and his book The Cry for Myth is very similar to what you're talking about.
--------------------
"Freud thought that a psychosis was a waking dream, and that poets were daydreamers too, but I wonder if the reverse is not as often true, and that madness is a fiction lived in like a rented house"
— William H. Gass
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 20 hours
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15458067 - 12/03/11 08:28 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
blingbling said:
i just realized that the answer to my question is in a quote from Bertrand Russel's a free mans worship: The life of Man is a long march through the night, surrounded by invisible foes, tortured by weariness and pain, towards a goal that few can hope to reach, and where none may tarry long. One by one, as they march, our comrades vanish from our sight, seized by the silent orders of omnipotent Death. Very brief is the time in which we can help them, in which their happiness or misery is decided. Be it ours to shed sunshine on their path, to lighten their sorrows by the balm of sympathy, to give them the pure joy of a never-tiring affection, to strengthen failing courage, to instill faith in hours of despair. Let us not weigh in grudging scales their merits and demerits, but let us think only of their need -- of the sorrows, the difficulties, perhaps the blindnesses, that make the misery of their lives let us remember that they are fellow-sufferers in the same darkness, actors in the same tragedy as oursevles.
interesting why is this the answer to your question? I didn't quite understand what you mean by culutural reference point, or the difference between a secure and insecure reference point.
I use culture as a reference point to guide my actions so I can survive and be healthy if I can. For example I know what clothes to wear to a job interview. I don't worry about whether the reference point is secure because I am secure in the knowledge that nothing is ever secure. I know I can't be sure, and thereby am relieved of the stress of worrying if I can be sure or not.
This is why I was interested in your quote above because it seems to speak to this insecure state we are in, except rather than talking about lack of security, he talks about the consequences that occur when the insecure world fails us or we fail ourselves and experience despair and blindness.
I think there is a great deal of psychological relief to be had when you can settle comfortably with full confidence in the knowledge that you will experience many failures, losses and misfortune of many types. Everything you have will be taken.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Freedom]
#15458117 - 12/03/11 08:52 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I think there is a great deal of psychological relief to be had when you can settle comfortably with full confidence in the knowledge that you will experience many failures, losses and misfortune of many types. Everything you have will be taken.
I really agree with this but must add that the transition to this belief system can be a bitch.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 20 hours
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Icelander]
#15458186 - 12/03/11 09:23 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I never really thought about that but you're probably right. Belief system come crashing down? I've been getting more accaptance of loss of everything death is a metaphor for. seems to be a process of transformation. less fear means less pull from emotion, clear headedness.
really total acceptance provides emotional stability
obviously if you ever think you might be clear headed the first thing you should do is assume delusion, but when others corroborate without solicitation then keep going in that direction?
But Always Keep OC's Skeptic's Eye
that thing can see the limits of everything, including its own limits. which means it knows it doesn't know everything.
Edited by Freedom (12/03/11 09:25 AM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Freedom]
#15458288 - 12/03/11 09:55 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Wow! I'm impressed. Carry on and I hope you reap great benefits. It's great inspiration for me and what I'm trying for.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Freedom]
#15462695 - 12/04/11 04:35 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
cognitivebias said:
Have you read any Rollo May? If you like Fromm, he's right up your alley, and his book The Cry for Myth is very similar to what you're talking about.
no i have not but it looks interesting. i've started to become interested in lacanian psychoanalytic theory so i think i will be pursuing this interest for a while.
Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
i just realized that the answer to my question is in a quote from Bertrand Russel's a free mans worship: The life of Man is a long march through the night, surrounded by invisible foes, tortured by weariness and pain, towards a goal that few can hope to reach, and where none may tarry long. One by one, as they march, our comrades vanish from our sight, seized by the silent orders of omnipotent Death. Very brief is the time in which we can help them, in which their happiness or misery is decided. Be it ours to shed sunshine on their path, to lighten their sorrows by the balm of sympathy, to give them the pure joy of a never-tiring affection, to strengthen failing courage, to instill faith in hours of despair. Let us not weigh in grudging scales their merits and demerits, but let us think only of their need -- of the sorrows, the difficulties, perhaps the blindnesses, that make the misery of their lives let us remember that they are fellow-sufferers in the same darkness, actors in the same tragedy as oursevles.
interesting why is this the answer to your question?
i think it answers my question because it allows me to do what i've always been interested in, which is helping people but my problem comes from knowing the blindness's which myself and many other people have. if people are largely blind then why help them? russel says we should help them in spite of their blindness's. i genuinely believe that if you have some understanding of the horrible nature of people and still wish to help them, that this is true morality. it is easy to help people if you think humans are divinely inspired but to help them in spite of their banality takes true courage. i guess you could say my source of devotion is to help others no matter how distasteful they may be and my cultural reference point is what it has always been, me and everyone i encounter.
--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
Edited by blingbling (12/04/11 04:37 AM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15462727 - 12/04/11 04:58 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
How could one know what is really helpful to people? Isn't that completely subjective? For instance lets say I share some food to keep someone alive. But maybe it's only their survival instinct and fear of death keeping them alive and secretly they pray for death and their life is nothing but pure suffering and all your "help" does is prolong this extreme suffering.
If that's true then your help is anything but and your wanting to help is arrogance.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 20 hours
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Icelander]
#15462941 - 12/04/11 07:42 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
This is exactly why I am against trying to help the world until I've understood my own mind and am engaged in healthy relationships with those around me.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Freedom]
#15462966 - 12/04/11 07:56 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Same here. Sometimes non interference may be the most helpful thing on can do.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
HippieChick8
seeker of justice
Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Freedom]
#15462979 - 12/04/11 08:04 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said:
I think there is a great deal of psychological relief to be had when you can settle comfortably with full confidence in the knowledge that you will experience many failures, losses and misfortune of many types. Everything you have will be taken.
I wonder if this is why people are moved to create art. Once you have the art in your head, be a song, a poem, or a drawing, even though the piece of art itself can be stolen or destroyed, you will still have it in your mind.
Won't you help to sing
These songs of freedom
'cause they all I ever had
Redemption songs, redemption songs
-Bob Marley
That slave can be stripped of everything but still have that redemption song in his head. It was all he ever had really.
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 20 hours
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Icelander]
#15463000 - 12/04/11 08:15 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
helping the world has been the justification for many wars, and probably horror of all kinds.
but even on a small individual level you act unskillfully without thinking or observing you screw up on a small level. you think but then 10,000,000 other people are doing the same thing and many hands make light work . . . like the money I gave the government for afraqistan how many deaths did I finance? Is there a calculator somewhere that I can put in my average sallary to estimate the taxes and the figure out the dollars to death ratio and calculate how many deaths I paid for?
anyway I think I'm going into medicine. If I save a life does that mean I can then take one? Or do I have to save two lives before I can take one?
|
cognitivebias
Stranger
Registered: 10/27/11
Posts: 61
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15463029 - 12/04/11 08:28 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
cognitivebias said:
Have you read any Rollo May? If you like Fromm, he's right up your alley, and his book The Cry for Myth is very similar to what you're talking about.
no i have not but it looks interesting. i've started to become interested in lacanian psychoanalytic theory so i think i will be pursuing this interest for a while.
Weird, I just started getting into Lacan (partially because of Zizek) a few months ago. Any recommendations?
--------------------
"Freud thought that a psychosis was a waking dream, and that poets were daydreamers too, but I wonder if the reverse is not as often true, and that madness is a fiction lived in like a rented house"
— William H. Gass
|
dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 5,219
Loc: Being a burden
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Freedom]
#15464061 - 12/04/11 12:39 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said:
This is exactly why I am against trying to help the world until I've understood my own mind and am engaged in healthy relationships with those around me.
I really like this one.
--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"A room without books is like a body without a soul." - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson
|
blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Icelander]
#15465310 - 12/04/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
cognitivebias said:
Quote:
blingbling said:
Quote:
cognitivebias said:
Have you read any Rollo May? If you like Fromm, he's right up your alley, and his book The Cry for Myth is very similar to what you're talking about.
no i have not but it looks interesting. i've started to become interested in lacanian psychoanalytic theory so i think i will be pursuing this interest for a while.
Weird, I just started getting into Lacan (partially because of Zizek) a few months ago. Any recommendations?
i've still got some reading to do before i can give any worth while recommendations but zizek has edited a couple of books dealing with lacan's theories so you might want to check them out. although it's pretty hard to find what you want from zizek, the guys written and been involved in the production of over 100 books.
Quote:
Icelander said:
How could one know what is really helpful to people? Isn't that completely subjective? For instance lets say I share some food to keep someone alive. But maybe it's only their survival instinct and fear of death keeping them alive and secretly they pray for death and their life is nothing but pure suffering and all your "help" does is prolong this extreme suffering.
this seems like a very unlikely situation. people don't usually try to kill themselves by starving and you can know what's helpful. assisted suicide could be considered helpful to the person you are talking about. for me helping someone is not about giving them food but giving them the tools for valuing themselves. some people in our society are very undervalued and if someone wishes to help them they should show others and the undervalued person that there is a place for them in the world.
Quote:
Icelander said:
If that's true then your help is anything but and your wanting to help is arrogance.
you may be right in some respects with this remark. i really hate it when that sentimental feeling washes over me after i've helped someone with a problem. i'm sure it's a form of narcissism. i work with a guy with autism and i especially hate it when people tell me how much of a good person i must be because i work in a specific industry. the cynical thought "lets just sit around and tell each other how wonderful we are, what a joke" often runs through my head. i've got a real problem with people getting all sentimental about helping someone else because i don't think the person being helped just sits around thinking how wonderful he/she is. sentimentality is a fake emotion imo. it's fake because it's not about another person it's all about themselves. even if they are crying because someone has passed a milestone, they aren't crying for that person, they are crying for themselves, because they cannot directly identify with themselves and so need an excuse to cry by claiming it's for another person.
--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15465333 - 12/04/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
some people in our society are very undervalued
who and how?
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: Icelander]
#15465401 - 12/04/11 04:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
like the guy i work with. some people see people with a disability as a nuisance or believe that they should be shot. i think becker said it best when he wrote in the denial of death that the reason people often become visibly sick at the sight of someone with a disability is because they realize that they could have been born with a similar problem. they realize the arbitrary nature of their body and the world around them. this conjures up feelings of death and they become anxious.
--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: finding a secure cultural reference point and source of devotion [Re: blingbling]
#15465558 - 12/04/11 05:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
That's true but one is not undervalued due to a disability but rather an ability that is undervalued. Those are the examples I'd like to hear about.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Edit 
Reply 
Crobih
1 2 all )
RebelSteve33
mr crisper
Adamist