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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: The_Aviator]
    #15449071 - 12/01/11 10:47 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The_Aviator said:
Though I think this debate is ridiculous.




That's what I've been trying to explain. Before we debate about a specific mental disorder, we need to ask ourselves, what is the mind and then what is a disorder?
It might take you years to find the answer. It might only take a few days.

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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: withoutawire] * 1
    #15449207 - 12/01/11 11:24 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

withoutawire said:
Are we really debating the legitimacy of schizophrenia existing?




no, it's not that simple, nothing is that simple (haven't you people learned this yet??). no one in their right mind believes that there aren't people out there that exhibit symptoms of schizophrenia. what is under debate here is the way schizophrenia is viewed in our society and consequently treated. on the one hand you have the perspective that schizophrenia is some sort of fundamental malfunctioning of the brain that renders the patient unable to fit into our society without the suppression of these symptoms through medication. on the other hand you have the perspective that schizophrenia is an altered sense of reality that has its advantages as well as its disadvantages, think shamanism. in this case the patient could be helped by the community to use his experiences to perhaps help others but more importantly to help himself get to a point of comfort in his reality so he can focus on his life rather than his affliction.

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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: nglsnv]
    #15449218 - 12/01/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

yea, schizophrenia is an advantageous brain function.

:rolleyes:

obviously you guys havent met someone with schizophrenia.



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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: nglsnv]
    #15449219 - 12/01/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Professor Tibbs said:
comfort in his reality so he can focus on his life rather than his affliction.




Medication only works on people who are at a certain stage in reincarnation. It's a combo of medication and the person's life force. If the person's spirit has some deep-seated issues, medication will not work on them. Even a drug like heroin will just make the schizophrenic's pathology more robust. As opposed to mellowing him out.

A dynamic approach that embraces the spiritual side of life is the cure for schizophrenia. The mental institution should be transformed into an LSD luxury resort.

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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: Samuel L Jackson]
    #15449271 - 12/01/11 11:47 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

yeah you've posted videos of gerald before to prove your point. i'm actually hoping to start an internship soon at a place that houses schizophrenics and other people with disorders of that sort. but i actually haven't met anyone with schizophrenia that i know of. i've only watched youtube videos, like you.

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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: nglsnv]
    #15449288 - 12/01/11 11:52 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

actually ive met a schizophrenic before, though he wasnt schizophrenic to the extent that gerald is.

it impedes on peoples lives and make shit difficult for them. its pretty hard to do normal shit when the entire time youre trying to do normal shit you have voices in the back of your head murmuring shit or you have sensations such as "my door is sad" or "that picture had a headache" coming at you.

the OP said he stayed up for an hour in bed just thinking about his door being sad. when i lay in bed for an hour and im still awake because my thoughts are keeping me up its pretty annoying. it would be pretty shitty if i didnt have the ability to prevent those thoughts from occurring and they were forced upon me as opposed to the thoughts being something like "shit, i failed that test; im an idiot" or something along those lines.


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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: Samuel L Jackson]
    #15449754 - 12/01/11 01:59 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

superhigh said:
A dynamic approach that embraces the spiritual side of life is the cure for schizophrenia. The mental institution should be transformed into an LSD luxury resort.




well, that won't be happening any time soon around these parts. i do think that mental institutions should treat these people differently than they currently are. they speak to them and treat them like they are retarded. it's obvious they have delusions and different thought patterns but i don't believe this should be cause for sticking someone on meds and separating them from society for an indefinite period of time.

in the book i mentioned earlier, Renee talks about when she was put into an institution the doctors wouldn't listen to her at all or give her what she wanted because she was 'crazy'. they caused he a lot of extra stress by not listening to her and instead trying to make her behave 'normally' or at least making sure she didn't do anything that wasn't normal.

in the very beginning of the video i think it is evident that Gerald is in a similar predicament because the first thing he expresses is his fear around all the doctors in the institutionalized environment. it's clear he doesn't trust them. Renee's only relief throughout her ordeal was when she could be around this one particular lady that she felt comfortable around and brought her back to reality. she was the one person that Renee trusted and who eventually helped her overcome her schizophrenia.

Quote:

SamuelLJackson said:
yea, schizophrenia is an advantageous brain function.

:rolleyes:




once again, it's not that simple. i stated that in a hypothetical situation in which a community views the schizophrenic as an equal but understands that he has a different perception of reality, his perceptions might actually have some advantages in some situations for some people.

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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: Samuel L Jackson]
    #15449789 - 12/01/11 02:12 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The_Aviator said:
I'm not going to touch upon the Scientologist conspiracy theories about psychiatry being a scam or whatever. The CCHR was founded by the Church of Scientology and they have no merit on this issue in my opinion.

I'll look into finding more sources to support the existence of schizophrenia as an abnormality when I have more time. Though I think this debate is ridiculous.




I think you're mischaracterizing my side of the argument here. I would like to very clearly distinguish the point I'm making from those of the rabidly anti-psychiatry and other types who are trying to portray schizophrenics as a minority being persecuted by big bad pharma. Also to clarify that I hate the Church of Scientology more than psychiatry. (I consider participation in that religion to be, in itself, a unique subtype of schizophrenia.) There is a place for psychiatry, and its medications have their place as well, though I think they are massively overprescribed by medical professionals who don't even understand what they do and are simply trying to make the patient more docile and less disturbing.

Say you break an arm. There's no doubt that this is an injury. A disorder, a disease? No. It requires medical attention to facilitate the healing process, but a broken arm is not a lifetime disorder or disease. It may, however, lead to lifetime disorder and disease, especially if not properly cared for.

Perhaps schizophrenia may be seen in a similar light. I have personally seen a psychotically disturbed person with (what I judged to be) irreversible emotional and social deterioration make a miraculous, almost spontaneous recovery.

I can't say to what degree she was helped by psychiatric attention or by seroquel. They honestly didn't seem to do much for her. She hated all that stuff, and I saw that the public health system treated her very impersonally. She couldn't afford the more thorough psychological care that patients need to get off those toxic meds and learn to live with themselves.

Most of her friends (mutual friends, which is how I met her) treated her abusively, too. She's a very attractive young lady and she embraced a sexpot persona because it was, in her experience, the only way to get attention and sympathy. My friends would slaver over her, get her blackout drunk to raise their chances at getting in her pants, take advantage of her neediness. She had frequent unexplainable bouts of histrionics, delusion, and suicidality. In spite of her attractiveness I couldn't bring myself to see her as a sexual entity. She honestly seemed like a frightened child, a damaged person. I was disgusted to see my own friends participating in the degrading cycle in which she had been caught.

I think what she mainly needed was for people to treat her like a human being. We talked and hung out a lot. We took acid, shrooms, DMT, and 2C-E (rectally, in fact) many times as well, and we explored the noetic landscape together. I worked to treat her with respect - to tell her the things I felt she needed to hear and to lend her my ear when she needed it. I was stern with her when I felt she was being unreasonable, and gentle when I could tell she was legitimately unhappy. I watched in amazement as she gradually found her way back to reality, forming stable relationships with other people who respected her, growing away from the people who had abused her, building the motivation to get on top of her life, finding work and going back to school. She tells me that I played an instrumental role in her healing process.

TL;DR I think that schizophrenia is mischaracterized as a disease or disorder. It's a neurological abnormality (or a collection of neurological abnormalities) caused by overwhelming environmental stress and exacerbated by genetic predispositions. In far too many cases, our medical system is preoccupied with treating the symptoms. Their predominant concern is usually either to turn a buck or to minimize liability for public services. In the midst of this kind of treatment, the patient's underlying problems are buried underneath seroquel and condescension, sometimes for life.

Edited by Tchan909 (12/01/11 07:29 PM)

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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: nglsnv]
    #15449824 - 12/01/11 02:22 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

....i like how two incidents of "fear" give you the idea that all mental institutions treat patients poorly.

my sister works in a mental hospital and she likes her job and never has anything bad to say about patients except for in one case where one bit her (luckily it wasnt a good bite and didnt draw blood). i highly highly doubt that when shes at work she treats the patients she works with poorly.

gerald is so out of his mind that even if he doesnt want to be there he should be there regardless. i don't want to run into people like that out on the street. and besides, i wouldnt think of them being "afraid" of their therapists or skeptical of their trustworthiness as strange anyway. the most common type of schizophrenia is called paranoid schizophrenia. they could be treating their patients very well and the patient would still dislike them. (gerald doesnt have paranoid schizophrenia as far as i know, seems more like disorganized schizophrenia to me, though im not a psychiatrist so dont take my word for it).

prisoners dont like being in jail but theyre there for a reason. you dont just let people out because theyre not having fun where theyre at. whether or not you would like to believe it patients in psychiatric hospitals are relatively unstable and its not uncommon for alarms to go off where my sister works and they have to get the guys who works there to go hold someone down because theyre freaking the fuck out for no good reason and inject them with whatever drug it was she says they use to sedate them when theyre having an episode. they dont have episodes all the time, but it happens, and its stupid to think that they should just be out and about in the world when theyre at risk of that happening.


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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #15449908 - 12/01/11 02:46 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

you're turning my words into absolutes again, that's not what i meant at all. the problem is that from the very beginning of their treatment they are put in situations in which they aren't given what they want, i'm thinking of the case of Renee in which she is institutionalized and is separated from her 'Mama' the woman that she finds some comfort with and an escape from her Unreality. so i would assume that Gerald has been going through this for a long time. doctors don't listen to him other than to find abnormalities in his behavior, his family doesn't listen to him because they think he is crazy, no one else listens to him because he just doesn't make sense. he is completely alone stuck in his version of unreality where no one is there to really help him, they just want him to act normal and get back to work.

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I think what she mainly needed was for people to treat her like a human being. We talked and hung out a lot. We took acid, shrooms, DMT, and 2C-E (rectally, in fact) many times as well, and we explored the noetic landscape together. I worked to treat her with respect - to tell her the things I felt she needed to hear and to lend her my ear when she needed it. I was stern with her when I felt she was being unreasonable, and gentle when I could tell she was legitimately unhappy. I watched in amazement as she gradually found her way back to reality, forming stable relationships with other people who respected her, growing away from the people who had abused her, building the motivation to get on top of her life, finding work and going back to school. She tells me that I played an instrumental role in her healing process.




this sounds wonderful :thumbup:

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Re: <span><span>Re: Is Schizophrenia re<span id="dtx-highlighting-item" dtx-highlight-backgroundcolor="yellow">all</span>y a</span><span id="dtx-highlighting-item" dtx-highlight-backgroundcolor="lime"> d</span>ise [Re: nglsnv]
    #15449912 - 12/01/11 02:47 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I'm a schizophrenic. It's a disease, not a viral or bacterial disease, but an environmental and genetic mental illness.


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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: nglsnv]
    #15449917 - 12/01/11 02:49 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

It was a deeply inspiring thing to see. At the time I didn't think people had that kind of power to improve themselves. I thought she would be a wreck for life, in and out of public institutions forever, the way she behaved when I met her. She inspired me to make positive changes in my own life as well.


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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: Samuel L Jackson] * 1
    #15450019 - 12/01/11 03:13 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Our culture is a million times iller than any schizophrenics out there.
The people who run this are psychopathic murderers, Our solution to someone being different is to throw them in a facility with many others locked in and fucked outta there mind on anti psychotics.

Mental hospitals are designed to keep the insane insane, and if you were not insane going in, just a bit odd, and you stay there for a couple months your gonna come out terribly mentally deteriorated. Ive seen it happen, My brother and My friend, and a girl friend have all did time in there and came out way worse, my friend is still nutty as ever, but when he came out of the hospital he ran away from home and he has gotten way worse since the government sponsored drugs.

Every single person i have known who started taking anti depressants or anti psychotics, have became much more boring sheltered people,they never even needed the drugs in the first place.

Yet people will still endorse this and argue for it.

Another reason why you shouldn't argue schizophrenia is a disease, is often the diagnosis and treatment is against the persons will, the family or friends or doctors decide its best for them against there will, this is the case with everyone i knew. The only reason they are admitted into a hospital is because the parents don't know how to handle it(because they are ignorant), so then they are forced to stay in a hospital, and then the doctor administers and sedates the poor lad(because that's his job), against his will, once the poor fellow starts to come out of his drug induced state he gets angry because he never wanted to go through this in the first place, but its too late, because if he shows his feelings about what has been done to him, he will have to remain in the hospital because hes already been labeled schizophrenic.

This process shows, our culture has no idea how to handle this.

None of this ever would have happened if we had the knowledge of how to deal with this properly which we don't, our culture also has no history of shamanism either..


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #15450077 - 12/01/11 03:24 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

well said man, this is exactly what I was getting at.

" think that schizophrenia is mischaracterized as a disease or disorder. It's a neurological abnormality (or a collection of neurological abnormalities) caused by overwhelming environmental stress and exacerbated by genetic predispositions. In far too many cases, our medical system is preoccupied with treating the symptoms. Their predominant concern is always either to turn a buck or to minimize liability to public services"

And i think more often then not, it's to turn MANY bucks.

That is definetely the short and sweet summary of my opinion on the matter.

:thumbup:

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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: Spooge]
    #15450182 - 12/01/11 03:50 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I love how this argument is full of people completely unqualified to make any sort of valid argument about the legitimacy of a disease they read about on the internet.


Do I want to trust an acid head, or the AMA and someone who went to medical school. Might as well be a christian vs. a scientist, because it feels about the same reading this thread.


So many lolz.


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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: withoutawire]
    #15450201 - 12/01/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah because were a bunch of fucktwats right ?

What do we know? Just leave it to the "professionals"

No body knows shit, were just trying to figure it out


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Offlinewithoutawire
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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: eltonjohn]
    #15450212 - 12/01/11 03:56 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

eltonjohn said:
Yeah because were a bunch of fucktwats right ?

What do we know? Just leave it to the "professionals"

No body knows shit, were just trying to figure it out





Ooooo someone is full of butthurt. If that's really how you react from my very light hearted post then you should consider seeing a psychiatrist for your schizophrenia.


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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: withoutawire]
    #15450238 - 12/01/11 04:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with you

Im just tired about people dictating and judging others because of misunderstanding, kinda how you did about me right there, joke or not.


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Offlinewithoutawire
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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: eltonjohn]
    #15450254 - 12/01/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

U mad bro?


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Re: Is Schizophrenia really a disease? [Re: withoutawire]
    #15450271 - 12/01/11 04:06 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

:ifyoucanawe:






















:awehigh:


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