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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land



Registered: 06/18/10
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Goddamn Melzer's Reagent
#15441232 - 11/29/11 05:46 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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OK, I have M.D. friends who might write me a prescription for Melzer's Reagent, and it could be filled at a compounding pharmacy. But Melzer's has a short shelf life, even refrigerated. On the other hand, chloral hydrate has an unlimited or at least very long shelf life. But no Doc friend in their right mind is going to give me a prescription for pure chloral hydrate.
Chloral hydrate is relatively easy to synthesize from common ingredients. But then I have to invest in a lot of chemistry glassware -- 3 flasks, 2 of which would need round bottoms, so then I gotta buy support rings, etc. etc.
-------------------- Liberté, égalité, humidité.
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MycoAu
5thKingdomCome


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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Terry M]
#15442593 - 11/29/11 10:36 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Do you truly need Melzer's or just an iodine stain of some sort? There have been comparative paper published for the use more common iodine preparations in staining vs Melzer's.
At any rate, use Google: Melzer's
Click the third link- it should be a PDF file. Read the whole thing. You'll find the answers to what you're looking for.
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Javadog
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Terry M]
#15442885 - 11/30/11 12:13 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I had a similar thought while reading "Mushrooms Demystified" where Arora pointed out that Chloral Hydrate is used in this reagent.
(land of the free? ....yes, and no)
I will check that link as well.
Thanks,
JD
-------------------- Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes Myco-tek.org
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Terry M
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: MycoAu]
#15443499 - 11/30/11 04:41 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
MycoAu said: Do you truly need Melzer's or just an iodine stain of some sort? There have been comparative paper published for the use more common iodine preparations in staining vs Melzer's.
At any rate, use Google: Melzer's
Click the third link- it should be a PDF file. Read the whole thing. You'll find the answers to what you're looking for.
Is that the paper by Leonard? www.fungimag.com/archives/Melzer__Lugol.pdf I've read the whole thing. He concludes that there is no completely equivalent iodine compound.
I don't REALLY need Melzer's, but it's so frustrating to see its use in many current US mycology papers and references. Okay, if something was written a century ago, that's another story. Like every lab is going to go through the paperwork and $5000 license fee to obtain the stuff. It is essentially off limits to amateurs.
-------------------- Liberté, égalité, humidité.
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Mycelio
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Terry M]
#15443534 - 11/30/11 05:30 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Just an idea... you may ask in the hunting forum. The guys over there might know a source, where you can order small amounts of Melzer's or perhaps the components.
Carsten
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mykeyspace
Stranger

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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Mycelio]
#15443958 - 11/30/11 09:09 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Our local mycology society orders a batch from a scientific supply house. The responsible just needs to sign for it (EU rules here). All the members who wish can get a tiny pipette bottle for home microscopy use or for the society's activities. You only need a tiny drip each time, the small bottle lasts quite a while.
You can try to find a local mycology society, or just ask a university professor... Most of them (at least here they are) are quite flattered that you're interested in mycology and might even teach you a trick or two. I got a free, two hours, private microscopy lesson when I asked for a few reagents.
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Terry M
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: mykeyspace]
#15444020 - 11/30/11 09:33 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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mykeyspace, if you are in the EU, you're not in the US. Things are very different here. We actually banned alcohol from 1920 to 1933! Chloral hydrate, or anything containing it is a "controlled substance," along with every sedative and tranquilizer.
-------------------- Liberté, égalité, humidité.
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Javadog
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Terry M]
#15444313 - 11/30/11 10:55 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yup, just as "some animals are more equal than others", we are the "Land of the Free" where this has become a copyrighted trademark and people we never know or meet get to define what "Free" means.
Pick up a copy of "Scientific American" from 1965 or earlier, and you may be surprised, as many of the experiments detailed are now illegal.
I like the idea of contacting someone in academia.
Good luck,
JD
P.S. I read the paper as well, and enjoyed it, but have to agree that it just confirms that we are out of luck.
-------------------- Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes Myco-tek.org
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CheeWiz


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 276
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Terry M]
#15447312 - 11/30/11 09:40 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hi; this is a reprint of some thing I post a time back. #13114067 - 08/28/10 11:39 AM Hi; I put this together from a mix of different sources as many of you are not familiar with Melzer’s and definitely don’t have access to the chemicals used to make it and it’s next to imposable to attain. For those of you who are lucky enough to have access to it or the chemicals to make it please bear in mind that most people don’t!
Melzer’s reagent most often informally known simply as Melzer’s is a stain and wet mount used to study the cellular structure of fungi in mycology to help assist with their identification. It’s made up of equal parts choral hydrate and a Lugol's solution. Melzer’s can be a bit troublesome to attain in that choral hydrate is a DEA controlled substance and iodine is now a restricted chemical because of its potential use in the illicit production of methamphetamine. But Lugol's solution can be purchased on line and at some health food stores. A 30ml or fluid ounce bottle will last quite some time for most of us.
Choral hydrate is a great mounting compound that has an excellent refraction index with clearing (macerating) properties making unstained chitin (the main component of the cell walls of fungi and the exoskeletons of insects) almost optically clear. But again a DEA controlled substance.
Lugol's iodine is an aqueous iodine solution that’s a useful stain in mycology that will produce a blue-black to black positive reaction on many amyloidal structures of the spore walls or cellular structure of the hyphae or apical apparatus on an ascus body, ex. While other parts may give an inamyloid reaction of near clear to a pale golden brown, others produce a dextrinoid reaction of reddish brown to deep reddish and a blue for a euamyloid reaction.
Lugol's solution is made up by dissolving one part of pure iodine crystals (here after simply called iodine crystals) to two parts potassium iodide into distilled water (5 g iodine crystals (I2) and 10 g potassium iodine (KI) mixed with 85 ml of distilled water as an example) and can run from a strong to a relativity weak solution. The potassium iodide helps renders the iodine crystals soluble in water by the formation of water soluble (I3−) triiodide ions. But again iodine is a restricted chemical now.
Iodine crystals are normally only soluble in a solvent like alcohol that’s then reduced with some distilled water to make a tincture of iodine like you would find in a drug store, ex. Because of its alcohol content and the dehydrating effect of alcohol on tissues. Tincture of iodine is a poor choice as a biological stain and will shrink and distort delicate mycological specimens with their high moisture content.
But a mild Lugol's solution does fit our needs as a general purpose mycological stain for this hobby when one may want a little extra contrast when viewing something under a microscope. Most times it's really not needed for simple viewing. I hope this is of some help; Hipster
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total
Post Office Tyvek Advocator




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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: CheeWiz]
#15450750 - 12/01/11 05:41 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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You will have better luck finding someone to manufacture some for "Research and Development" purposes...
Such as, http://www.jadechem-intl.com/cgi/search-en.cgi?f=product_en_1_&id=5423&t=product_en_1_
There shouldnt be a problem with it, as long as its labeled "Not for human consumption"
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CheeWiz


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 276
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: total]
#15470415 - 12/05/11 04:35 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hi; all the companies in China and even India that I’ve had dealings with will not put their export license to the USA at risk an if needed FDA License by selling any compound that contains anything that's on the DEA list of controlled or restricted compounds or anything controlled by the FDA to an unlicensed buyer! This is a don’t ask/don’t tell thing; but I’ve been told that one can find compounding pharmacies in India that will.
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dtowntoker
gimme a spliff
Registered: 08/06/11
Posts: 2,368
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: CheeWiz]
#15472655 - 12/06/11 12:20 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey Terry, what kind of glassware would you need? I may be able to help you out...
--------------------
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land



Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 1,502
Loc: Rhode Island
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: dtowntoker]
#15473328 - 12/06/11 06:45 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dtowntoker said: Hey Terry, what kind of glassware would you need? I may be able to help you out...
Thanks, but I thought about the process a little more. Chlorine gas is continually generated. This is very toxic! So you need a lab flow hood (not the kind we use -- the vertical kind) to sweep away this gas as it is generated. You need a real chemistry/biology lab.
-------------------- Liberté, égalité, humidité.
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total
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Terry M]
#15474005 - 12/06/11 10:29 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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You need a vent hood... Or you can just work outside, like the rest of the amateur chemists!
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land



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Posts: 1,502
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: total]
#15474684 - 12/06/11 01:05 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
total said: You need a vent hood... Or you can just work outside, like the rest of the amateur chemists!
Sure, I'll set up some chemistry equipment outside and synthesize a controlled substance. My 2 outdoor mini-greenhouses look suspicious enough, and I don't even grow actives!
-------------------- Liberté, égalité, humidité.
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total
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Terry M]
#15474708 - 12/06/11 01:10 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land



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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: total]
#15481014 - 12/07/11 03:40 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- Liberté, égalité, humidité.
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wbastz
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Terry M]
#16598791 - 07/27/12 10:13 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hi Terry,
Although it is an old thread ....
If you lived in the UK (unfortunately this doesn´t apply to you or me), you could get Melzer´s reagent or chloral hydrate from this site:
http://www.abfg.org/chemicals.php
According to the site : The chemicals are for personal use only and you must first be a member of ABFG. You should not ask on behalf of another person as this could jeopardize the future availability.
Wilson
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Javadog
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: wbastz]
#16598915 - 07/27/12 10:45 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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We need a UK colleague willing to act as a middle-man.
Theoretically, of course.
:0)
JD
-------------------- Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes Myco-tek.org
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The Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Javadog]
#16599077 - 07/27/12 11:11 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I need Melzer's to continue studying/microscopy.
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OICU812
NC Tree Farm owner



Registered: 11/06/11
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Has anyone tried Stamet's? He has access to some special stuff that most do not like antibiotics for agar.
Just a thought, maybe worth a try.
-------------------- -------------- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin "Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin ----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson
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field9
Busy


Registered: 07/03/12
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Terry M]
#16620729 - 07/31/12 06:37 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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You can get by with without a full lab. You should have a proper mask, goggles and skin protection. Chlorine, after all, was a chemical weapon. Chlorine, ethanol, and water to make chloral hydrate, but I'll be damned if I'll post the synthesis for something like that: it'd be irresponsible.
If your truly not up to no good, I say contact the DEA and apply for a permit. They will likely help. I know a lady that gets a controlled compound via a permit: she's totally above the board, though.
Land of the free, my ass...
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Javadog
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: field9]
#16621285 - 07/31/12 09:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
field9 said: <SNIP> Land of the free, my ass...
QFT.
Read a "Popular Mechanics" magazine from the 60's some time.
Half that shit is illegal today.
Jefferson had the ability to see the future....everywhere Liberty will decrease.
JD
-------------------- Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes Myco-tek.org
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land



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Posts: 1,502
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: field9]
#16621446 - 07/31/12 10:18 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
field9 said: You can get by with without a full lab. You should have a proper mask, goggles and skin protection. Chlorine, after all, was a chemical weapon. Chlorine, ethanol, and water to make chloral hydrate, but I'll be damned if I'll post the synthesis for something like that: it'd be irresponsible.
If your truly not up to no good, I say contact the DEA and apply for a permit. They will likely help. I know a lady that gets a controlled compound via a permit: she's totally above the board, though.
If you really want to make chloral hydrate yourself, directions may be found from a Google search. I will not post the link, of course.
Chlorate hydrate is a DEA Schedule IV substance, a relatively low classification which includes Darvon and Xanax. It shouldn't be impossible to get a permit for this, though you would certainly get the third degree about it (or maybe just the fourth degree ). It would probably need to be renewed on a regular basis. In any case, I'm sure you are absolutely prohibited from giving or selling it to any third party not registered with the DEA.
-------------------- Liberté, égalité, humidité.
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OICU812
NC Tree Farm owner



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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Javadog]
#16624085 - 07/31/12 05:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said:
Quote:
field9 said: <SNIP> Land of the free, my ass...
QFT.
Read a "Popular Mechanics" magazine from the 60's some time.
Half that shit is illegal today.
Jefferson had the ability to see the future....everywhere Liberty will decrease.
JD
Janis Joplin had a pretty good concept of our modern day freedom too: "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
-------------------- -------------- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin "Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin ----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson
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johnm214


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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: field9]
#16624317 - 07/31/12 06:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
field9 said: I'll be damned if I'll post the synthesis for something like that: it'd be irresponsible.
Yes, you never know what people will do with information. They might stain fungi, or take drugs, OMG!
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The Lightning
Mycology Enthusiast


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 3,889
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: johnm214]
#16624334 - 07/31/12 06:33 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yes, you never know what people will do with information. They might stain fungi, or take drugs, OMG!
x2!
If our nations would just start seeing the good in people and invite them to partake in science, I'm confident we would do more than find new challenges. We would find new solutions.
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tomthechemist
Stranger
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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: Terry M]
#17404749 - 12/16/12 10:21 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Chloral hydrate can be downright impossible to obtain if you are in the US. The DEA and its regulation make it an unreasonable operating liability to try to obtain chloral hydrate for use. Due to procurement problems, Rutgers University scientists have developed a working substitute for chloral hydrate for use in microscopy, known as Visikol (wikipedia). It is available for sale at their website Visikol. Their website has a bunch of pictures, seems to be applicable for a number of applications.
They have some pictures of downy mildew infecting basil, stained with I2/KI, seems like a Melzer's equivalent.
Hope this helps fellow shroomers!
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lipa

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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It's not hard to get. Just go to your local mushroom society and ask around. Usually there is someone from the universities or a lab that will make the reagent up for you. It is not illegal to use it for the right purposes.
lipa
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Sillyputty67

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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: lipa]
#17460752 - 12/28/12 12:11 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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this is a modern substitute for chloral hydrate.
http://www.visikol.com/
-------------------- 1) Everything I ever posted or say is a lie.
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Terry M
Stranger in a Strange Land



Registered: 06/18/10
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Quote:
malicom said: this is a modern substitute for chloral hydrate.
http://www.visikol.com/
See this post.
-------------------- Liberté, égalité, humidité.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

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Re: Goddamn Melzer's Reagent [Re: lipa]
#17493897 - 01/03/13 08:28 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
lipa said: It is not illegal to use it for the right purposes.
I don't think the controlled substances act has a provision that allows you to use illegal drugs for "the right purposes". That would be nice though. I have never heard of anyone getting busted for Melzers though.
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Javadog
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
lipa said: It is not illegal to use it for the right purposes.
I don't think the controlled substances act has a provision that allows you to use illegal drugs for "the right purposes". That would be nice though. I have never heard of anyone getting busted for Melzers though.
Besides, the days where anyone looked at Chloral Hydrate as anything recreational are long, long past....at least in my part of the world.
We are just so much better at making rules for others to follow than we are at deleting laws from the books that have run their course.
JD
-------------------- Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes Myco-tek.org
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