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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Should criminals be punished?
    #1542682 - 05/12/03 08:25 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The free will : fate thread, subjective morals, and Sam Clemens essay had me thinking abou this. Should they be punished for their transgressions?
Copy of essay: http://users.telerama.com/~joseph/mantble.html

Quote:

O.M. In one way they do, in another they don't. They separate the smallpox patients from the healthy people, but in dealing with crime they put the healthy into the pest-house along with the sick. That is to say, they put the beginners in with the confirmed criminals. This would be well if man were naturally inclined to good, but he isn't, and so ASSOCIATION makes the beginners worse than they were when they went into captivity. It is putting a very severe punishment upon the comparatively innocent at times. They hang a man--which is a trifling punishment; this breaks the hearts of his family--which is a heavy one. They comfortably jail and feed a wife-beater, and leave his innocent wife and family to starve.




I realise that the innocent's must be protected, but does one moral justice outweigh a moral injustice? How do you evaluate which is better?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: Should criminals be punished? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1542844 - 05/12/03 09:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I believe that prison should not be about punishment. It should be about rehabilitation and detention. They should try and rehabilitate the prisoners so they can lead productive lives, and those that they can't rehabilitate should be kept in prison for their full prison term in order to protect society from them by making sure they're not out there walking the streets.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAmnesiac
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Re: Should criminals be punished? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1543177 - 05/12/03 11:18 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The concept of punishment is very ignorant, if you ask me. It's like silversoul said, it should be about rehabilitation. The reason why we still punish rather than rehab is because punishment requires much less effort.

Parents who spank their children are using a quick and easy tactic involving violence and threats in order to scare their children into behaving. They use fear tactics, which is never the way to go. If you care about your children, you will take the time to explain to them that what they have done is wrong, and how they have hurt themselves and other people by doing it.

Of course, with adults who commit serious crimes, it's a bit more complicated than that, but the fact remains that the time and effort is lacking in our current "criminal justice system". Basically our government's method is "Lock em up and forget about them" and hope that the loss of a large portion of their lives will be punishment enough for them to change their ways. For some, it does work, but not for all. When criminals are arrested 3, 4, 5 or more times for similar crimes, we have to take note that simply locking them up or fining them is not effective.

Good luck getting the government to change though. All their time and money is tied up in fighting silly wars that can't be won, and pursuing greater comforts and conveniences for the power elite.

Shameful


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Here we are, in these bodies, on this planet in an endless universe. This is not the extent of who we are... merely an extension of who we really are.


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Should criminals be punished? [Re: Amnesiac]
    #1543444 - 05/13/03 12:35 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

How do we choose to punish people if we don't have a will to do it?


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Should criminals be punished? [Re: NariusFractal]
    #1543571 - 05/13/03 01:01 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Any infringement upon anyone elses' will in this reality should be punished*. Except when the punished do not want to be punished.





*As long as the will is within their own realm of ownership (common sense).


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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineMurex
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Re: Should criminals be punished? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1543586 - 05/13/03 01:05 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I believe that prison should not be about punishment. It should be about rehabilitation and detention. They should try and rehabilitate the prisoners so they can lead productive lives, and those that they can't rehabilitate should be kept in prison for their full prison term in order to protect society from them by making sure they're not out there walking the streets.

I like this, but it is not an effective means of showing a wrong-doer how wrong he or she was. Punishment should at least come before rehabilitation imo.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Should criminals be punished? [Re: Murex]
    #1543588 - 05/13/03 01:06 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

But as in the example of the wife-beater who is put in jail and fed, while his wife and children starve, is one justice worth another injustice?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Should criminals be punished? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1543622 - 05/13/03 01:15 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)


That is a difficult question. Its a catch 22 either way.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Should criminals be punished? [Re: Amnesiac]
    #1545321 - 05/13/03 03:53 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Parents who spank their children are using a quick and easy tactic involving violence and threats in order to scare their children into behaving. They use fear tactics, which is never the way to go. If you care about your children, you will take the time to explain to them that what they have done is wrong, and how they have hurt themselves and other people by doing it.



How do you propose explaining something to a person who has not developed the cognitive ability to understand your explanation? Sometimes, as a parent, it is better to inflict a little pain to alter a child's behavior in order to prevent a much worse pain and possibly fatal result from actions of an ignorant child. In the real world, sometimes explanations have to come later. Some children, even when they have the ability to understand will still not listen. As an example, I would rather my child have a slightly red buttocks than be driven over by a car in the street.

As for our prison system, I think there should be two primary goals
1) protection of the public from any more victimization at the hands of the perpetrator
2) compensation to the victims from the perpetrator.
No one should be released unless #1 can be reasonably expected (to this end I cannot think that I would ever let child molesters back out, nor any kind of serial criminal) and #2 is definitely fulfilled.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineYou_are_God
^So are We^
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Re: Should criminals be punished? [Re: Evolving]
    #1545404 - 05/13/03 04:16 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The problem in this case is the government or ruling party...
If true enlightened people who actually worked for the greater good of everyone and knew the basic truths of our existence were leading our "country" all of this would be different. Of course the ramafications of this happening would far exceed improved criminal justice..rehabilitation would be the only way and would actually be possible. Right now it is impossible for many reasons mainly that how can one wrongdoer teach another to be "right" of course all of this ties into the basic understanding of "right vs wrong" which is a different topic entirely (considereing the way things are discussed must be broken up rather than that everything just is connected). The people that we choose to lead us are very overrated to say the least and do not understand even the most basic of true knowledge. To even say "what if" like I have just done is ridiculous, but communication is hard to begin with...We wonder why we have problems like criminals etc and we try to correct these problems by attacking them directly. If we looked at the more connected big picture we would see that the true "problem" in this case lies in many other reasons than just a criminals mind. To understand anything one must look to everything for answers for it is all truly integrally connected. this is a perfect example of how anything can be looked at from infinite levels of understanding, connectivity and perspective.
Peace


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
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Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
Re: Should criminals be punished? [Re: You_are_God]
    #1545810 - 05/13/03 06:27 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think that if you care about society, it's hard to argue that locking up most unstable people (angry, uneducated minorities) in our country up half and half with ordinary people who got caught with reefer is a very smart thing to do. I know that it's easy to ignore these kinds of people, but they're still around... and they'll just be angrier and poorer when they leave prison. and probably all fucked up in the head. I know a guy that got lock up in a county jail for a whole year for sending some acid in the mail. now he's totally crazy with PTSD. he used to be this really creative personable guy, and now he's just fucked up. I think that people should still be punished, but just with alot more house arrest so people can still go to work and shit.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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