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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: propensity]
    #15413825 - 11/23/11 04:42 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

propensity said:
There is no proof that anything you experience is real.


This is nonsense...everything I experience, by definition, exists, and is real.


Quote:

propensity said:
It takes faith to believe anything at all.


Science doesn't have beliefs, it is composed of tentative theories.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: Poid]
    #15413830 - 11/23/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

propensity said:
You require faith in science because all science relies on human perception...


That does not follow...

Faith is the firm belief in something for which there is no proof... there is no widely accepted theory in science for which there is no strong evidence.





string theory, abiogenesis, big bang theory, there's thousands of them, some
even violate the very laws that science has set, unlike religion, science is
set up to say 'whoops, we dun goofed' so they can claim that they werent
really wrong, they just didnt have all the facts


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Offlinewildchild68
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #15413848 - 11/23/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:





yikes.

that's the guy who hired an escort and purchased meth from him.

leading a bunch of people who think they are following a man of the lord.

yikes.


--------------------


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: Poid]
    #15413850 - 11/23/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
we're not preached about it in scientific literature; also, scientific literature backs its claims up with evidence, whereas religious people don't.





bible genetics,the bible backed it's claim that breeding sheep in front of a striped pole would produce striped sheep


Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Different areas of science collaborate with each other, whereas different sects of religion oppose each other... not very similar IMO. :shrug:




one group is currently protesting the current discovery of a particle
traveling faster than light, saying that their prophet, Einstein is right
that's not cooperation, that's opposition. they question the validity
through various means
...


That sounds like collaboration to me; that is what scientists do, they have their peers review their theories. :shrug:




religious sects must be must collaborating as well


Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...such as the substrate it was fired through, the
synchronization of clocks, anything to say that the other is wrong and
nothing can travel faster than light


They are just trying to defend their theory because they think it's correct based on the available evidence




defending their beliefs in some theory or another

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

propensity said:
It takes faith to believe anything at all.


Science doesn't have beliefs, it is composed of tentative theories.




see above


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Offlinesunset_mission
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #15413854 - 11/23/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

sunset_mission said:
There are no "scientific" means or experiments to prove or disprove "God" in the religious sense.




there's no way to prove or disprove the existence of god in any sense, atheist take it on faith because of their beliefs that god doesnt exist while christians believe he does




In the end proponents of either stance resort to faith, faith of their opinion being right one in the end.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Religion indoctrinates




as does science, just as any other religion there are many sects, some
believe special relativity, the string theory, abiogenesis while others
do not and there's plenty of infighting between them




Religious doctrines and scientific areas of study/theory are not necessarily one and the same. That there are various schools of differing thought that lead to disagreements is similar in both science and religion, I suppose.




we can articulate it in any way we wish but it doesnt change the facts, I
cannot send my children to public schools for them to learn religious
belief of intelligent design or creation, instead they are indoctrinated
with the secular views of science. parents are required by law to send
their kids to school and as most people cant afford private schools,
public schools are the available option for them.  why is one view pushed
in schools while the other is not, in america we call it indoctrination
just as religion indoctrinates children to believe in creation




That would stem probably from the decision to divide the church and state? Teaching science in schools over creationism is how it is, it avoids the problem of dissent from individuals of various other faiths being forced to take a class on something that might possibly clash with their own faith, whereas science can be learned and studied by anybody without it clashing with their religious faith since science is not a religious system.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #15413857 - 11/23/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

propensity said:
You require faith in science because all science relies on human perception...


That does not follow...

Faith is the firm belief in something for which there is no proof... there is no widely accepted theory in science for which there is no strong evidence.





string theory...


Is this a widely-accepted theory among physicists? I'm not sure that it is... either way, there is some convincing evidence that supports it.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
abiogenesis


This isn't a theory, it's an area of study.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
big bang theory


There is a lot of strong evidence in support of this theory.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
there's thousands of them, some
even violate the very laws that science has set


Example(s)?


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...unlike religion, science is
set up to say 'whoops, we dun goofed' so they can claim that they werent
really wrong, they just didnt have all the facts


I don't see anything wrong with that... what's wrong with scientists coming up with false conclusions from time to time? The tentativeness of scientific theories is what makes science so great... everything in science is subject to revision pending new evidence that contradicts current understandings.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: wildchild68]
    #15413859 - 11/23/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wildchild68 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:





yikes.

that's the guy who hired an escort and purchased meth from him.

leading a bunch of people who think they are following a man of the lord.

yikes.





dude... meth and hookers, how can he not be a true believer with all that
money rolling in, I believe in meth and hookers... and viagra because of
the meth


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: Poid]
    #15413865 - 11/23/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...unlike religion, science is
set up to say 'whoops, we dun goofed' so they can claim that they werent
really wrong, they just didnt have all the facts


I don't see anything wrong with that... what's wrong with scientists coming up with false conclusions from time to time? The tentativeness of scientific theories is what makes science so great... everything in science is subject to revision pending new evidence that contradicts current understandings.




what's wrong with fraudulent science from time to time?

there's a reason the theories arent scientific fact


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #15413875 - 11/23/11 04:55 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
we're not preached about it in scientific literature; also, scientific literature backs its claims up with evidence, whereas religious people don't.





bible genetics,the bible backed it's claim that breeding sheep in front of a striped pole would produce striped sheep


:lolwut:


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

That sounds like collaboration to me; that is what scientists do, they have their peers review their theories. :shrug:



religious sects must be must collaborating as well


The difference is that religious sects simply provide their beliefs, show how the beliefs of other religious sects differ from theirs, and from that conclude that those other sects are wrong. Scientists actually provide data/evidence to back their theories, and they do so in pursuit of truth, not for the mere sake of being right.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

They are just trying to defend their theory because they think it's correct based on the available evidence


defending their beliefs in some theory or another


Scientists don't necessarily believe in their theories, and they recognize that theories in science are tentative.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...unlike religion, science is
set up to say 'whoops, we dun goofed' so they can claim that they werent
really wrong, they just didnt have all the facts


I don't see anything wrong with that... what's wrong with scientists coming up with false conclusions from time to time? The tentativeness of scientific theories is what makes science so great... everything in science is subject to revision pending new evidence that contradicts current understandings.




what's wrong with fraudulent science from time to time?

there's a reason the theories arent scientific fact


Who said anything about fraudulent science? Just because a scientist is wrong about a certain theory doesn't necessarily mean s/he's a fraud.

Theories aren't called facts because they aren't facts. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinewildchild68
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: Poid]
    #15413889 - 11/23/11 04:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

propensity said:
There is no proof that anything you experience is real.


This is nonsense...everything I experience, by definition, exists, and is real.




i'm going to have to agree with propensity on this one.

everything you experience might be "real" (could be debated), but you're missing the part where people are interpreting the "real".

take for example a spoon. to both an adult and a baby, the spoon is real. but for one of them it's used as an eating utensil while the other one might prefer to use it as a toy used for flinging objects.

perception is everything.

i love science, but to say it paints the whole picture is misleading in my mind.


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: wildchild68] * 1
    #15413898 - 11/23/11 05:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wildchild68 said:
i'm going to have to agree with propensity on this one.

everything you experience might be "real" (could be debated)...


That is not a debatable point... by definition, an experience exists. Also by definition, everything that exists is real.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: Poid]
    #15413910 - 11/23/11 05:04 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Theories aren't called facts because they aren't facts. :shrug:





just as the ted hagards of this world may make a fortune bilking the
believers while pushing the word of god, the believers of science are
gobbling up the words of the scientist as though it were the gospel

so as these are tentative beliefs it means that scientists are simply
trolling, cranking out theory after theory that they have no confidence
in and hoping no one actually looks deeper

great job of making science look even more like religion poid


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Offlinewildchild68
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: Poid]
    #15413940 - 11/23/11 05:11 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

yeah, those were some classic videos.
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

wildchild68 said:
i'm going to have to agree with propensity on this one.

everything you experience might be "real" (could be debated)...


That is not a debatable point... by definition, an experience exists. Also by definition, everything that exists is real.




sure, but that experience isn't being experienced by some objective force. it's being experienced by people.

what they take out of that experience can be so varying and disconnected that the realness of the experience isn't exactly something to cling to.


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #15413942 - 11/23/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Theories aren't called facts because they aren't facts. :shrug:





just as the ted hagards of this world may make a fortune bilking the believers while pushing the word of god, the believers of science are gobbling up the words of the scientist as though it were the gospel


Even if this is true, so what, what does this say about science itself? Nothing.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
so as these are tentative beliefs it means that scientists are simply
trolling, cranking out theory after theory that they have no confidence
in and hoping no one actually looks deeper


They are not trolling... who said that they have no confidence in their theories, and that they hope no one actually looks deeper? Scientists don't necessarily believe in their theories, but this doesn't indicate that they have absolutely no confidence that their theories are correct. It only indicates that they're aware of the possibility that their theories may be incorrect.

Also, they aren't tentative beliefs, they are tentative theories... there's a difference.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
great job of making science look even more like religion poid


I actually used to believe that science and religion are fundamentally similar (I made a thread about this topic a few years ago in PSP), but now I see that I was wrong. :stoned:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: wildchild68]
    #15413951 - 11/23/11 05:14 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wildchild68 said:
what they take out of that experience can be so varying and disconnected that the realness of the experience isn't exactly something to cling to.


I'm not getting what you mean by "real" here... what is meant by clinging to the "realness" of an experience? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinewildchild68
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: Poid]
    #15414058 - 11/23/11 05:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

wildchild68 said:
what they take out of that experience can be so varying and disconnected that the realness of the experience isn't exactly something to cling to.


I'm not getting what you mean by "real" here... what is meant by clinging to the "realness" of an experience? :undecided:




yeah, i might have worded that poorly.

what i'm saying is that your idea of everything experienced being real as a conclusion to what's real and what's not is shortsighted.

a religious person might have a psychedelic experience and attribute the entire occurence to the divine power of god. a scientist might have a psychedelic experience and simply attribute the powerful experience to the simple firing of neurons.

with your understanding, they're both real. so how can you discredit the religious person?

i guess my point is saying something is real doesn't really validate it any sense.


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: wildchild68]
    #15414080 - 11/23/11 05:37 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wildchild68 said:
a religious person might have a psychedelic experience and attribute the entire occurence to the divine power of god. a scientist might have a psychedelic experience and simply attribute the powerful experience to the simple firing of neurons.

with your understanding, they're both real. so how can you discredit the religious person?


Both of their experiences are real, but they're nothing more than that; experiences. Just because a person attributes their psychedelic experience to God doesn't necessarily mean that God had something to do with it (or that he even exists for that matter); it could be that God had nothing to do with it, and that he's not even real.


Quote:

wildchild68 said:
i guess my point is saying something is real doesn't really validate it any sense.


I think I see your point now, and I agree. :smile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: wildchild68] * 1
    #15414113 - 11/23/11 05:43 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Atheists seem to use science as their main argument. (I am an atheist, just making an observation) I think the scientific method is the best way to go about making your own opinions. But to me it seems a lot of people in general put faith in science, just like others do with religion. If you haven't personally performed or at least witnessed an experiment that provides evidence for something, you can't really be sure about that conclusion. The average person has probably recreated many of the simpler experiments, often in school. But a lot of it is accepted with trust in the source of information. I'm not saying if that is bad or good, but religious people are doing the same thing. They trust the source of their information and put their faith in those beliefs.


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Offlinesunset_mission
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Re: "I teach logic, mother fucker." Professor Confronts Preacher on Campus [Re: psilyguy]
    #15414151 - 11/23/11 05:51 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Except that oftentimes the faith in theories postulated by the scientist can be proven or disproven through trials enacted to reach such ends, at which point the faith either becomes a truth/fact or, if proven to be wrong, simply fades.

The faith which the religious devotee places in certain things cannot be proven or disproven, thus it remains as merely faith.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: [Re: psilyguy]
    #15414201 - 11/23/11 06:04 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

psilyguy said:
But to me it seems a lot of people in general put faith in science, just like others do with religion.


I don't think this is really true... religious people have blind, unquestioning belief in their ideas, this is different from the type of belief people generally have in science. People who generally believe in science will from time to time question some of its findings; religious people generally don't question anything about their religion.


Quote:

psilyguy said:
If you haven't personally performed or at least witnessed an experiment that provides evidence for something, you can't really be sure about that conclusion.


True, but it's far more reasonable to assume that the scientists who conducted a certain experiment, and the scientists who peer-reviewed it and its conclusions are acting in good faith than to assume that they are all lying together.


Quote:

psilyguy said:
But a lot of it is accepted with trust in the source of information.


That's because the source is (usually) trustworthy, unlike the sources of religious information.


Quote:

psilyguy said:
I'm not saying if that is bad or good, but religious people are doing the same thing.


It's only similar in that they have beliefs that correlate with a certain source of information... the manner in which they process that information is totally different.


Quote:

psilyguy said:
They trust the source of their information and put their faith in those beliefs.


No, faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no evidence; people believe in scientific theories because there is a lot of evidence which supports them, and because the source of this evidence seems reliable. This isn't faith, it's reasoning.


Edited by Poid (04/04/12 02:34 PM)


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