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 Deiymiyan
I AM
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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 Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore)  [Re: Sclorch]
#1541881 - 05/12/03 01:42 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Epistemology
The branch of philosophy that studies the nature of knowledge, its presuppositions and foundations, and its extent and validity.
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I didn't know what that meant, so I found a definition in case anyone else was unaware like me.
I've never seen any of these words before...
So... if a theory or philosophy was like a ship, then a coherence check is like investigation of leaky holes within the ship's hull?
Then, testing, fine tuning and adjusting is termed a coherence check?
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Dei Gratia de integro,
Veni Vidi Vici:
In Nomine Domini..
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Malachi
stereotype
Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Sclorch]
#1541885 - 05/12/03 01:44 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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where you place heteroabsolutism is where I have been taught to place universalism or inclusivism. there is an absolute truth but it can be applied differently.
and yes, its unreasonable to simply state a belief in an argument. how does this fit into your argument against your beliefs being classified as such? there's a reason that philosophers write long books..... it's cause you can't just explain yourself in a sentence.
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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich
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Anonymous
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 Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Sclorch]
#1542131 - 05/12/03 03:25 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cool.
That's the best explanation you have given to date.
How would you apply that within a consensus driven reality? Or would each individual have a different 'truth'?
Cheers,
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Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 17 years, 11 days
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Sclorch]
#1543482 - 05/12/03 10:45 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm hardcore enuff to say that it's all in the eye of the beholder.
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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
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Anonymous
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Sclorch]
#1543979 - 05/13/03 12:57 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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In academic philosophy circles, knowledge is defined to be "justified, true belief".
justified means that the belief exists... and knowledge*(see below) is "you" identifying with the justification for some reason or another, which makes it a "true belief"... the only problem lies with the reason you make it your own, and that lies in our fallable desire to identify with an ego and sense of "self"... we want to believe in things because it makes us who we are. its that warm feeling that goes along with a certain justifcation which makes us say "yep thats me"....but there is no justification in the emotion we feel.
If you've known me long enough on this board, you'll have heard me say that I don't have beliefs... all I have are quasi-, working beliefs. These practical shortcuts are everchanging (read: not static).
i don't choose to adopt a set of beliefs either, because i can understand a point of view, and the logic behind its derivation, but the acceptence into my "beliefs" takes me to feel something from that justification, and since i can't rationalize my emotions, there is no reason to call it "knowledge"..*(knowledge in the skewed sense as the academic philosophies say, not my take on it)
i choose to be a cosmic fool. three cheers for relativism.
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Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 17 years, 11 days
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: ]
#1544064 - 05/13/03 01:24 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's a waste of time debating this topic, trust me.
--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
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 Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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 Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1544190 - 05/13/03 02:24 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Deiymiyan: So... if a theory or philosophy was like a ship, then a coherence check is like investigation of leaky holes within the ship's hull?
Almost... I'd use the analogy of a spiderweb. When strands break due to whatever reason, I fix them or replace them altogether. And as your web grows, it works better. The strength of the web lies in the connections.
Deiymiyan: Then, testing, fine tuning and adjusting is termed a coherence check?
Well, that's what I mean by "coherence check". I think I made it up.
Malachi: there is an absolute truth but it can be applied differently.
No, truth is contingent.
Mr_Mushrooms: How would you apply that within a consensus driven reality?
Practical application. I hope you're not speaking of utilitarianism... are you?
M_M: Or would each individual have a different 'truth'?
Each individual COULD have a different truth... it would be dependent upon the function of said 'truth'. If it works for one and doesn't impede on another, there is no problem of having different truths. When it comes to debate, however, only one can survive... unless it's a rare case of null preference.
Murex: It's a waste of time debating this topic, trust me.
Well, thanks for your five lines of input on this wasteful discussion. 
--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Anonymous
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Sclorch]
#1544925 - 05/13/03 11:35 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Null preference. I like that. Could you please elaborate that for the others.
Cheers,
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: ]
#1546284 - 05/13/03 07:15 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Null preference is a largely underrated concept in the field of AI/Philosophy of Mind. The compatibilists really don't like it.
I'll try to explain it...
According to compatibilism, JOE is a machine. His choices are culmination of his experiences, etc.
One day JOE finds himself in a tricky situation: he can either have a slice of apple pie OR a chocolate ice cream cone. The trouble is, both choices are equally valid. JOE is caught up in a case of null preference.
Damn.... I hope that's good.
I hope it is clear enough why I used that term above.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Anonymous
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Sclorch]
#1550393 - 05/15/03 07:39 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Good enough for me. I hope the others got it.
Cheers,
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Rhizoid
carbon unit
Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 7 months, 3 days
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Sclorch]
#1550435 - 05/15/03 08:16 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I know that feeling, I sometimes get caught up in null preferences until I make a random decision...
But I don't see why compatibilists wouldn't like it?
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Deiymiyan
I AM
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Rhizoid]
#1550743 - 05/15/03 11:08 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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".....until I make a random decision..."
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That, my friend, is not possible. You do not make random decisions. You make calculated decisions.
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Dei Gratia de integro,
Veni Vidi Vici:
In Nomine Domini..
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1550757 - 05/15/03 11:13 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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"random" decisions...
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Deiymiyan
I AM
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: infidelGOD]
#1550763 - 05/15/03 11:15 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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Lol... THAT is not random.
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Dei Gratia de integro,
Veni Vidi Vici:
In Nomine Domini..
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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 Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1550786 - 05/15/03 11:25 AM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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random input, "random" output.
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Rhizoid
carbon unit
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Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 7 months, 3 days
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1551100 - 05/15/03 12:48 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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I do make random decisions sometimes, or at least they seem random for all practical purposes since no one (including me) can predict their outcome and since I didn't desire any one particular outcome to happen. That's about as random as anything gets in our world. When I'm really stuck I flip a coin or use some other randomizing device, and any artificial intelligence could of course use some similar strategy to handle null preference.
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Deiymiyan
I AM
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: infidelGOD]
#1551119 - 05/15/03 12:55 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's a 45 degree 2-1-1 alternate colour shift, of the 2 part and 1 part, type pattern starting with 1 and ending with 1, but of the other colour, super imposed upon a pattern of alternating squares within a parametre ( The white boarder ). It creates a nice "effect"... In ILLUSION if you will.
It does not create a random output... rather a very predictable, pre-determined, calculated! effect.
BTW... That pic under it is really sweet !!! Ahhhh... ya gotta love astronomy !
I hope you didn't include that there to further your "random" argument... Cause you'll sink on that too.
Around these parts... you can't make a stone float on regular H2O... LOL
*// takes a set of "spare wings", places them on infidelGOD. ... "Come fly with me for a bit... I'll take you on a "behind the scenes tour" and then you'll be able to see what I'm talking about with your own eyes in the near future. [But you can't go right now... cause IT's currently locked temporarily... therefore you do not have access at this time] " //*
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Dei Gratia de integro,
Veni Vidi Vici:
In Nomine Domini..
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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 Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: Deiymiyan]
#1551323 - 05/15/03 02:11 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, nothing I do is TRUE randomness...
and what "random" argument are you talking about? did you think I was attempting to "demonstrate" randomness... lol, I don't think that's really possible cuz you know, it's so easy to say "but you were MEANT to post those pics!"...
I think a definition of randomness is in order.... care to give it a shot?
I actually try to stay away from the word because I honestly don't know what it REALLY means... I know the definition and all that but did you ever stop to think about the essence of randomness?... it's quite mind-numbing.
if you want to see a cool pattern, blow smoke into a plane of light, like you get from vertical blinds, and you will see something close to randomess.... it's what I would call it anyway... oh but THAT's not random either is it? it's all just acting on physical laws and equations... maybe so, but keep trying to get more precise in your calculations and see where that leads you.
it'll lead you down this path:
pi = 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197 16939937510582097494459230781640628620899862 80348253421170679821480865132823066470938446 09550582231725359408128481117450284102701938 52110555964462294895493038196442881097566593 34461284756482337867831652712019091456485669
.....................................................................
not exactly random, but it's indefinite, irrational, unknowable.
the world isn't made up of pixels and nice whole numbers, think smaller, in the spaces in between the smallest possible measurements, in between those particles of smoke, and when you can see that... go even deeper... if you want precise calculations, you need 100% precise values that are ultimately unattainable... like the Mandelbrot set, you'll see that there is no end, and there is infinite detail and resolution, limited only by our ability to zoom in deeper, just as the number pi only goes as far as we care to calculate... it never repeats, it never ends... no, still not true randomness, but it sure is something else.
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: infidelGOD]
#1551370 - 05/15/03 02:24 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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oh yeah and no ROUNDING either!...
that's what I would call REALLY REALLY SOFT determinism
If we are to actually determine anything, we must be precise to the nth degree, infinitely precise, actually, so no rounding please.
and if you REALLY want a behind the scenes look, do not look to spirituality, do not look to science... most are just self-contained, self-affirming beliefs that reveal momentary truths. In my experience I have found bits of truth in the friction between great schools of thought. if you think about it, the membrane defines the field. the edges, zoom in on the edges...
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Deiymiyan
I AM
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 656
Loc: Within the Realm of Imagi...
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: More Epistemology (for the hardcore) [Re: infidelGOD]
#1551969 - 05/15/03 05:00 PM (21 years, 4 months ago) |
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it'll lead you down this path:
pi = 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197 16939937510582097494459230781640628620899862 80348253421170679821480865132823066470938446 09550582231725359408128481117450284102701938 52110555964462294895493038196442881097566593 34461284756482337867831652712019091456485669
.....................................................................
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Sweet !!! I recognise the first part of it... it the rest true as well ? That's a great number.. Pi .... Thanx for posting it !!!! 
I have an answer ready for you...I actually typed it, took care of some erands, came back here and saw this reply you made...
Do you play chess?
That was a nice move... When you see my reply, you'll see that I anticipated it....lol
But I'm not going to post it here... And don't worry, I'm not gonna cheat and say to round off or anything... lol....
I like your post ..
I'll give you my point of view as soon as it becomes possible.... I'm not backing out... I just have to wait a second...
In the mean time... enjoy the flight!
I'll be taking those wings back later... you'll have to grow your own...lol
--------------------
Dei Gratia de integro,
Veni Vidi Vici:
In Nomine Domini..
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