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 Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
 
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
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I think this is a non sequitur; I don't see how the proposition "Everything that ever was and will be could all be there simultaneously" follows from the premise "time and space are two aspects of the same thing". It could be that time and space are two aspects of the same thing, and that "everything that ever was and will be" isn't all there simultaneously.
Picture length or distance. While you have to move from one point to the next to the next to go from beginning to end; that does not mean that the entire length was not already there.
I'd say that the entire length was already there; I lean towards the idea that there are an infinite number of universes corresponding to every possible time period. If you travel to another time period, you are in effect traveling to a different universe that was already there (similarly to how, if you travel a certain distance, you are traveling across a certain length that was already there), according to this idea. I still, though, don't think that the proposition "Everything that ever was and will be could all be there simultaneously" necessarily follows from the premise "time and space are two aspects of the same thing". Again, I think it's possible that "everything that ever was and will be" isn't all there simultaneously.
Sure, space and time are interlinked as "spacetime", but despite this, both space and time have unique properties; it could be that all space exists in the universe at one time, while all events in time (in the universe) exist "one at a time", for lack of a better term. 
I don't claim to know the truth at all, I'm just proposing some theories. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (11/13/11 11:34 PM)
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Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ
Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH
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 Re: Grandfather paradox  [Re: NetDiver]
#15367371 - 11/13/11 11:22 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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i think it may be easier to move ahead on past the entirety of time, after the universe ends and restarts, and then forward on to the point that the man who is to be the father of the father of the "you" that is you in this new universe is born, and then kill him.
thusly stoping yourself from ever being born.
problem philosophy?
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EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT 
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Poid]
#15367404 - 11/13/11 11:33 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm thinking, instead of "universes", a more appropriate term may be "temporal dimensions"...
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell 
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Poid]
#15367417 - 11/13/11 11:37 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I like the idea that the present is manifested, not as the result of a permanent and predetermined course, but a form of infinite potential. This allows for all possible presents to have a potential of becoming reality, without the need for branching time lines or parallel dimensions. The past I speculate would be the remaining unused potential. I have also tried to factor in an entropic collapse of acceleration once the potential passes through the moment, leading to a recirculation of potential. I do have some crazy ideas.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367448 - 11/13/11 11:47 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brainstem said:
I like the idea that the present is manifested, not as the result of a permanent and predetermined course, but a form of infinite potential. This allows for all possible presents to have a potential of becoming reality, without the need for branching time lines or parallel dimensions.
And it's also compatible with the quantum mechanical position that the universe isn't completely deterministic (IMO). 
Quote:
Brainstem said:
The past I speculate would be the remaining unused potential.
I see the past as either the entire set of events that previously occurred in reality, or as the unlimited amount of possible events that previously occurred which can lead to an unlimited amount of possible futures.
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Brainstem said:
I have also tried to factor in an entropic collapse of acceleration once the potential passes through the moment, leading to a recirculation of potential. I do have some crazy ideas.
You lost me at "entropic collapse", let alone "entropic collapse of acceleration". I'm also not sure what you mean by "recirculation of potential".
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (11/13/11 11:54 PM)
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Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Poid]
#15367577 - 11/14/11 12:31 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
And it's also compatible with the quantum mechanical position that the universe isn't completely deterministic (IMO).
This makes it appealing to me. 
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I see the past as either the entire set of events that previously occurred in reality, or as the unlimited amount of possible events that previously occurred which can lead to an unlimited amount of possible futures.
This still has the feeling of predetermination I think, what I mean is that if there is an infinite potential on one side of the present, once it manifests one possible present very little potential is required relative to the supply available. Bear in mind there is no need for all possible pasts to be realized or even accounted for as all the magic is happening during the transition from future to past. This means that most of the potential is untouched when a moment is crystallized.
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You lost me at "entropic collapse", let alone "entropic collapse of acceleration". I'm also not sure what you mean by "recirculation of potential".
What I mean is that there is an apparent direction in which time moves, I suggest that this arrow of time (acceleration) loses momentum beyond the passing of the moment and reverses it's course, (but on it's return pass doesn't go through the same sort of transition point as before however.) and circulates round for another transition run. This I speculate is due to an inherent pull from the present point which is neutralized in the past.
http://goodshare.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/torus-animated.gif
This is the sort of dynamic I am talking about.
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PatrickKn
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,715
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367635 - 11/14/11 12:50 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I can't say for sure or anything not knowing much about physics, but I think that if it were possible it would have to create an alternate universe separate from the one you have been living, a time loop that goes elsewhere in the time spectrum by bending through the 5th dimension rather than manipulating the fourth.
Edited by PatrickKn (11/14/11 01:24 AM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367637 - 11/14/11 12:51 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brainstem said:
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I see the past as either the entire set of events that previously occurred in reality, or as the unlimited amount of possible events that previously occurred which can lead to an unlimited amount of possible futures.
This still has the feeling of predetermination I think...
I think the first possibility I posed (which I put in bold here) has a feeling of predeterminism; I don't think the second possibility I posed does at all.
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Brainstem said:
...what I mean is that if there is an infinite potential on one side of the present...
In the second possibility I posed, there is "infinite potential" on both sides of the present. All possibilities exist, but in unique "temporal dimensions", for lack of a better term.
Quote:
Brainstem said:
...once it manifests one possible present very little potential is required relative to the supply available. Bear in mind there is no need for all possible pasts to be realized or even accounted for as all the magic is happening during the transition from future to past. This means that most of the potential is untouched when a moment is crystallized.
Not sure what you mean by "most of the potential is untouched"... might you expand on that concept?
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Brainstem said:
Quote:
You lost me at "entropic collapse", let alone "entropic collapse of acceleration". I'm also not sure what you mean by "recirculation of potential".
What I mean is that there is an apparent direction in which time moves, I suggest that this arrow of time (acceleration) loses momentum beyond the passing of the moment and reverses it's course, (but on it's return pass doesn't go through the same sort of transition point as before however.)
Why would it reverse its course? What sort of conditions would cause it to reverse its course?
And, while on its return pass, if it doesn't go through the same transition point as before, then what point does it go through?
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Brainstem said:
...and circulates round for another transition run.
Are you saying it goes back and forth? If so, what makes you think it does that?
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Brainstem said:
This I speculate is due to an inherent pull from the present point which is neutralized in the past.
I'm not sure I'm getting you... are you saying that the present fulls the future into itself, and that the this pull is neutralized by the past?
Sorry, but this is getting quite complicated for me. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: PatrickKn]
#15367647 - 11/14/11 12:55 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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The torus may need to occupy a fifth dimension, but wouldn't the fourth dimension be the toroidal mass of potential cycling through the three dimensional space at it's core ?
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PatrickKn
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,715
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367679 - 11/14/11 01:08 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brainstem said:
The torus may need to occupy a fifth dimension, but wouldn't the fourth dimension be the toroidal mass of potential cycling through the three dimensional space at it's core ?
More or less, which is why I think it'd be mostly impossible in any biological state without the ability to ignore the 4th dimension when connecting with the 5th dimension. Any singular action from any molecule changing in any 3rd dimension would create an entirely separate universe, both forever changing it's third AND fourth dimensions permanently, leaving the original dimension behind to go wherever it was going.
In short, I don't think time travel is possible unless you are the cosmic whole rather than a creature on any given planet. The entire universe as a whole would need to fold into the 5th dimension for any part of the third (including yourself) to be able to go into it, effectively making impossible any time travel possibilities (to the past). Going into the future seems more possible.
Edited by PatrickKn (11/14/11 01:15 AM)
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Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367698 - 11/14/11 01:17 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
unlimited amount of possible events that previously occurred
Is this the same as infinite potential ?, I think so.
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Not sure what you mean by "most of the potential is untouched"... might you expand on that concept?
If we are talking about all the potential required to manifest a universes life time of existence, then the amount of potential required to light the bulb for one moment is tiny in comparison.
To illustrate a bit more I added the animation, sorry if I'm not being coherent. I see the potential being drawn through the singularity at the core of the doughnut, similar to the way gravity effects matter, then upon passing through the core, the direction of this force changes and causes the potential to slingshot back around. It wouldn't pass through the core because there is only a one directional flow.
If you look at the animation you see that it is only the inner funnelling of the doughnut that passes through the present, the rest exists outside of three dimensional space.
I think I'm reaching the limits of my ability to communicate this idea. 
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PatrickKn
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,715
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367710 - 11/14/11 01:20 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Exactly! The potential energy needed to move an entire universe forward would be much more than it would take to move just a person through time. However I think that you would need to move the entire universe in the fourth dimension to possibly get anything done in the third, thus making time travel impossible in the biological state.
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Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: PatrickKn]
#15367724 - 11/14/11 01:26 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Time travel may be about reversing the flow of potential through the present, rather than moving through time to a given point. This kind of dynamic encompasses the whole universe, which would be the three dimensional space nestled at the core and the point of transition would be the objective present, but could a similar dynamic apply to our own motion through time as conscious observers ?
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 Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: PatrickKn]
#15371405 - 11/14/11 09:00 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:
Exactly! The potential energy needed to move an entire universe forward would be much more than it would take to move just a person through time. However I think that you would need to move the entire universe in the fourth dimension to possibly get anything done in the third, thus making time travel impossible in the biological state.
Im not sure it makes sense to talk about the universe 'moving' forward' through time. Certain objects simply exist at certain points in time. If the ball moves from a to b, it means that the ball is at a at time1 and at b at time2. It doesnt actually move from a to b, but rather, the energy acting on the ball at time1 is consistent with a universe where the ball is at b at time2...
Energy thus is not used to move things through time but to constrict the possible range of universes that are consistent with the present/past.
This is one of the reasons that time travel does not make sense - Energy is never used to propel something backwards in time. The only observed time distortions we have seen are where objects 'move through time' at a slower or faster speed than other objects. This means that the energy acting on those objects is changing at a slower or faster rate. It means that ball at A, with energy E is consistent with different results depending on the relative motion of point A. If point A is moving really fast, then ball with energy E at time1 is only going to get half way to point B by time2.
OK im beginning to possibly become very confusing now so I will stop
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
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Im not sure any real science backs up time travel.
Methinks you misunderstood. Thre is nothing in the physics equations which rules it out as it does with FTL travel.
It is funny to hear this coming from you. There is nothing in physics equations which rule out God or Aliens or mystical experiences, or any of that shit, but you still are quite opposed to those ideas.
It seems rational to deny time travel, because its never been observed and although its consistent with some laws of physics, it is inconsistent with other laws, and is also inconsistent with any view of the universe other than a purely deterministic, eternalistic view. Once again thats just one possibility along with a range of other weird ones.
So if you will have a conservative skeptical world view, time travel must be relegated to the basket of strange unproven ideas?
I mean, quantum physics theoretically shows that it is consistent that a massive amount of energy will suddenly form out of nowhere, as long as it only happens once in a trillion gazillion years. That moment may as well be tomorrow. But since its just a theoretical possibility that has never been observed and which is inconsistent with our intuitions, we don't take the possibility very seriously.
It seems like the only reason science fans enjoy time travel stories is because they feature heavily in science fiction but not in religious fiction
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Given sufficient power and technology, what do you surmise would happen if you did go back in time and kill your grandfather?
I'm partial to the Mother-in-Law paradox. If you go back and kill your mother-in-law, the sequence of events that eventually lead to you losing the house, car, boat, and savings account to your bitch wife in the divorce will never come to pass and so you'll die rich and happy. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Diploid]
#15371615 - 11/14/11 09:41 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have often wondered how you got your rose bushes to look so damn healthy. 
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
#15371996 - 11/14/11 10:48 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Im not sure any real science backs up time travel.
Methinks you misunderstood. Thre is nothing in the physics equations which rules it out as it does with FTL travel.
It is funny to hear this coming from you. There is nothing in physics equations which rule out God or Aliens or mystical experiences, or any of that shit, but you still are quite opposed to those ideas.
It seems rational to deny time travel, because its never been observed and although its consistent with some laws of physics, it is inconsistent with other laws, and is also inconsistent with any view of the universe other than a purely deterministic, eternalistic view. Once again thats just one possibility along with a range of other weird ones.
So if you will have a conservative skeptical world view, time travel must be relegated to the basket of strange unproven ideas?
I mean, quantum physics theoretically shows that it is consistent that a massive amount of energy will suddenly form out of nowhere, as long as it only happens once in a trillion gazillion years. That moment may as well be tomorrow. But since its just a theoretical possibility that has never been observed and which is inconsistent with our intuitions, we don't take the possibility very seriously.
It seems like the only reason science fans enjoy time travel stories is because they feature heavily in science fiction but not in religious fiction
Look up Tipler's cylinder. Time travel is theoretically possible to both the future and the past, but only as far back as the creation of the cylinder.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: deCypher]
#15372027 - 11/14/11 10:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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You better create your cylinder NOW so that you have something worthwhile to come back to.
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Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: deCypher]
#15372067 - 11/14/11 11:03 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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deCypher said Quote:
Look up Tipler's cylinder. Time travel is theoretically possible to both the future and the past, but only as far back as the creation of the cylinder.
...or as far back as own bodies existence, by shifting our subjective awareness forwards or backwards along the temporal thread of brain activity. (just a thought)
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