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 OrgoneConclusion
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 Grandfather paradox 
#15365948 - 11/13/11 05:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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While philosophical conundrums largely reject the possibility of time travel; physics as it is today, does not. Given sufficient power and technology, what do you surmise would happen if you did go back in time and kill your grandfather?
More importantly, what kind of a psychotic super-fuck would you have to be to waste such a chronistic adventure by killing dead relatives? 
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (11/14/11 01:27 AM)
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Sly Stone
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Humans are the ultimate prey.
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Brainstem
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
what do you surmise would happen if you did go back in time and kill your grandfather?
I can't say for certain, but hopefully I'll get to him before he is able to travel to the future and impregnated my granddaughter. 
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 Noteworthy
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
While philosophical conundrums largely reject the possibility of time travel; physics as it is today, does not. Given sufficient power and technology, what do you surmise would happen if you did go back in time and kill your grandfather?
More importantly, what kind of a psychotic super-fuck would you have to be to waste such an cronistic adventure by killing dead relatives?
Im not sure any real science backs up time travel. Its massive speculation on levels far removed from experimental tests. Or have you got some new evidence on the contrary?
If The past and future were causally linked, then in order to kill your grandfather, you would have had to already kill your grandfather. If you killed your grandfather, then he wouldn't really be your grandfather because your grandfather is someone who gave birth to your parents.
The only way it is possible is if you go back in time and into another parallel universe. But I'm not sure we would call that true time travel
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Desert Elf
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I dont think you would make it though the other side, the energy alone would melt all those particles into a resulting vapour, suitable for time travel... when it re-emerges at any point within the dimesions of space time, it is at a tiny scale.. Right now there are instance of high energy matter emerging from other spacetime dimensions all around you.
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TheChillMovement
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I think that the "accepted" answer to that paradox is thus:
The millisecond you travel aback in time (although it is currently impossible under current human understanding), a parallel time warp opens, causing two separate realities. You would kill your grandfather, and in that reality, your family would not exist. In your own personal reality, everything would be the same. These two realities will exist together as separate entities, yet somehow dependent upon each other.
Then again, this is assuming that the past even exists!! Remember, the past is nothing more than human generated memories. So, it may be physically impossible to go back in time, but only THINK that you are because it is in your own mind!!
WHAT!?!?1
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Brainstem
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The present is all there is ?, this is where I would normally place my money, but who knows.
The past moments of our lives may be irredeemable or they may be ever present, our futures may
be a prewoven rug road, already laid out ahead of us, or they may be undecided until reaching the singularity of manifestation that is the now. If the past no longer exists, would time travel require us to revive past moments in the present ? Another interesting question would be; If time travel became possible, would an individuals consciousness be able to travel further back than it's conception ?
Is the future pre-determined and the past forever lost ?
Is the future unwritten and the past a testament to the present ?
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OrgoneConclusion
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 Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
#15366911 - 11/13/11 09:37 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Im not sure any real science backs up time travel.
Methinks you misunderstood. Thre is nothing in the physics equations which rules it out as it does with FTL travel.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15366933 - 11/13/11 09:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The present is all there is ?,
Subjectively true, but from a physics perspective there is no such thing as 'now'.
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Brainstem
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So our angle on time is all completely subjective ?
Does that indicate that our experiences are ever present, but that the linear appearance of existence is just the way the brain presents it to us ?
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367071 - 11/13/11 10:06 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Does that indicate that our experiences are ever present, but that the linear appearance of existence is just the way the brain presents it to us ?
That is one perspective. As time and space are two aspects of the same thing, it is possible that there is nothing flowing from one moment to the next and that is mere a brain illusion. Everything that ever was and will be could all be there simultaneously.
Picture the Hubble Telescope when we see a distant star exploding billions of light years away. It is happening now from our brain's and eye's perspective, yet we say it happened billions of years ago. Which is 'correct'?
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Brainstem
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I would say objectively it happened billions of years ago,
but that the light we perceive as happening now is like an echo. 
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Poid
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Given sufficient power and technology, what do you surmise would happen if you did go back in time and kill your grandfather?
There are several different possibilities...
Maybe there are an infinite number of universes corresponding to every single possible time period; for example, one traveling back in time to one second ago would be traveling to a different universe than the one they came from, which would mean that their actions in the universe they traveled to wouldn't effect events in the universe they came from. This would mean that one can travel back in time to another universe and kill their grandfather in that universe, without causing a "paradox", because events in the universe they traveled to wouldn't effect events in the universe they came from, and thus wouldn't effect them (since it is a universe that is completely independent from the universe they came from).
There is also the possibility that, when one travels back in time, they literally "reverse time" in the universe they were born in; this would mean that, if they went back in time and killed their grandfather, they would cause a paradox and thus cease to exist (due to the paradox they caused).
Perhaps there are several different possible methods of time travel, which each can potentially cause different effects; I don't know enough about physics to give a definite, concrete answer, but this is basically my thoughts on time travel, given my limited knowledge.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Brainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Poid]
#15367187 - 11/13/11 10:32 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Have you seen The One with Jet li ?
I think it's based on the many worlds theory, but the twist is that each version of the same individual is assigned his or her ration of energy and as the character in the story moves through dimensions executing his parallel selves, the energy is divided up among the remaining versions. It's sort of like the quickening in the Highlander movies.
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Poid
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
As time and space are two aspects of the same thing, it is possible that there is nothing flowing from one moment to the next and that is mere a brain illusion. Everything that ever was and will be could all be there simultaneously.
I think this is a non sequitur; I don't see how the proposition "Everything that ever was and will be could all be there simultaneously" follows from the premise "time and space are two aspects of the same thing". It could be that time and space are two aspects of the same thing, and that "everything that ever was and will be" isn't all there simultaneously.
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Picture the Hubble Telescope when we see a distant star exploding billions of light years away. It is happening now from our brain's and eye's perspective, yet we say it happened billions of years ago. Which is 'correct'?
Our perception of it may be happening now, but we know what we're seeing happened billions of years ago due to our ability to measure its distance from us.
We are able to measure a celestial body's intrinsic brightness (i.e. absolute magnitude), and compare it to its apparent brightness (i.e. apparent magnitude); this means that we can measure a body's actual brightness (or actual output of photons), and compare to its brightness as seen from an observer on Earth (or the actual output of photons that reach an observer on Earth [normalized to the value it would have in the absence of the atmosphere]). We are able to do this due to our ability to accurately calculate the distances of celestial objects from us.
I think both our perception of a distant star exploding billions of light years away, and our theory that what we're perceiving originally occurred billions of years ago are both correct; we know that what we're perceiving happened billions of years ago because of our measures of its intrinsic and apparent brightness, and because of our measure of its distance from us.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (11/13/11 11:27 PM)
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NetDiver
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem] 1
#15367276 - 11/13/11 10:52 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Poid]
#15367295 - 11/13/11 10:58 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think this is a non sequitur; I don't see how the proposition "Everything that ever was and will be could all be there simultaneously" follows from the premise "time and space are two aspects of the same thing". It could be that time and space are two aspects of the same thing, and that "everything that ever was and will" isn't all there simultaneously.
Picture length or distance. While you have to move from one point to the next to the next to go from beginning to end; that does not mean that the entire length was not already there.
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Brainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: NetDiver]
#15367313 - 11/13/11 11:03 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's awesome, I don't fully understand all the jargon but I'll read it again.
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Brainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367323 - 11/13/11 11:05 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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NetDiver
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Right. According to physics, time is a dimension, with coordinates just like space.
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Poid
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
I think this is a non sequitur; I don't see how the proposition "Everything that ever was and will be could all be there simultaneously" follows from the premise "time and space are two aspects of the same thing". It could be that time and space are two aspects of the same thing, and that "everything that ever was and will be" isn't all there simultaneously.
Picture length or distance. While you have to move from one point to the next to the next to go from beginning to end; that does not mean that the entire length was not already there.
I'd say that the entire length was already there; I lean towards the idea that there are an infinite number of universes corresponding to every possible time period. If you travel to another time period, you are in effect traveling to a different universe that was already there (similarly to how, if you travel a certain distance, you are traveling across a certain length that was already there), according to this idea. I still, though, don't think that the proposition "Everything that ever was and will be could all be there simultaneously" necessarily follows from the premise "time and space are two aspects of the same thing". Again, I think it's possible that "everything that ever was and will be" isn't all there simultaneously.
Sure, space and time are interlinked as "spacetime", but despite this, both space and time have unique properties; it could be that all space exists in the universe at one time, while all events in time (in the universe) exist "one at a time", for lack of a better term. 
I don't claim to know the truth at all, I'm just proposing some theories.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (11/13/11 11:34 PM)
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Salomon
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: NetDiver]
#15367371 - 11/13/11 11:22 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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i think it may be easier to move ahead on past the entirety of time, after the universe ends and restarts, and then forward on to the point that the man who is to be the father of the father of the "you" that is you in this new universe is born, and then kill him.
thusly stoping yourself from ever being born.
problem philosophy?
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EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT 
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Poid
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Poid]
#15367404 - 11/13/11 11:33 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm thinking, instead of "universes", a more appropriate term may be "temporal dimensions"...
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Brainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Poid]
#15367417 - 11/13/11 11:37 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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I like the idea that the present is manifested, not as the result of a permanent and predetermined course, but a form of infinite potential. This allows for all possible presents to have a potential of becoming reality, without the need for branching time lines or parallel dimensions. The past I speculate would be the remaining unused potential. I have also tried to factor in an entropic collapse of acceleration once the potential passes through the moment, leading to a recirculation of potential. I do have some crazy ideas.
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Poid
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367448 - 11/13/11 11:47 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brainstem said:
I like the idea that the present is manifested, not as the result of a permanent and predetermined course, but a form of infinite potential. This allows for all possible presents to have a potential of becoming reality, without the need for branching time lines or parallel dimensions.
And it's also compatible with the quantum mechanical position that the universe isn't completely deterministic (IMO). 
Quote:
Brainstem said:
The past I speculate would be the remaining unused potential.
I see the past as either the entire set of events that previously occurred in reality, or as the unlimited amount of possible events that previously occurred which can lead to an unlimited amount of possible futures.
Quote:
Brainstem said:
I have also tried to factor in an entropic collapse of acceleration once the potential passes through the moment, leading to a recirculation of potential. I do have some crazy ideas.
You lost me at "entropic collapse", let alone "entropic collapse of acceleration". I'm also not sure what you mean by "recirculation of potential".
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (11/13/11 11:54 PM)
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Brainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Poid]
#15367577 - 11/14/11 12:31 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
And it's also compatible with the quantum mechanical position that the universe isn't completely deterministic (IMO).
This makes it appealing to me. 
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I see the past as either the entire set of events that previously occurred in reality, or as the unlimited amount of possible events that previously occurred which can lead to an unlimited amount of possible futures.
This still has the feeling of predetermination I think, what I mean is that if there is an infinite potential on one side of the present, once it manifests one possible present very little potential is required relative to the supply available. Bear in mind there is no need for all possible pasts to be realized or even accounted for as all the magic is happening during the transition from future to past. This means that most of the potential is untouched when a moment is crystallized.
Quote:
You lost me at "entropic collapse", let alone "entropic collapse of acceleration". I'm also not sure what you mean by "recirculation of potential".
What I mean is that there is an apparent direction in which time moves, I suggest that this arrow of time (acceleration) loses momentum beyond the passing of the moment and reverses it's course, (but on it's return pass doesn't go through the same sort of transition point as before however.) and circulates round for another transition run. This I speculate is due to an inherent pull from the present point which is neutralized in the past.
http://goodshare.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/torus-animated.gif
This is the sort of dynamic I am talking about.
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PatrickKn
Registered: 07/10/11
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367635 - 11/14/11 12:50 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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I can't say for sure or anything not knowing much about physics, but I think that if it were possible it would have to create an alternate universe separate from the one you have been living, a time loop that goes elsewhere in the time spectrum by bending through the 5th dimension rather than manipulating the fourth.
Edited by PatrickKn (11/14/11 01:24 AM)
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Poid
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367637 - 11/14/11 12:51 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brainstem said:
Quote:
I see the past as either the entire set of events that previously occurred in reality, or as the unlimited amount of possible events that previously occurred which can lead to an unlimited amount of possible futures.
This still has the feeling of predetermination I think...
I think the first possibility I posed (which I put in bold here) has a feeling of predeterminism; I don't think the second possibility I posed does at all.
Quote:
Brainstem said:
...what I mean is that if there is an infinite potential on one side of the present...
In the second possibility I posed, there is "infinite potential" on both sides of the present. All possibilities exist, but in unique "temporal dimensions", for lack of a better term.
Quote:
Brainstem said:
...once it manifests one possible present very little potential is required relative to the supply available. Bear in mind there is no need for all possible pasts to be realized or even accounted for as all the magic is happening during the transition from future to past. This means that most of the potential is untouched when a moment is crystallized.
Not sure what you mean by "most of the potential is untouched"... might you expand on that concept?
Quote:
Brainstem said:
Quote:
You lost me at "entropic collapse", let alone "entropic collapse of acceleration". I'm also not sure what you mean by "recirculation of potential".
What I mean is that there is an apparent direction in which time moves, I suggest that this arrow of time (acceleration) loses momentum beyond the passing of the moment and reverses it's course, (but on it's return pass doesn't go through the same sort of transition point as before however.)
Why would it reverse its course? What sort of conditions would cause it to reverse its course?
And, while on its return pass, if it doesn't go through the same transition point as before, then what point does it go through?
Quote:
Brainstem said:
...and circulates round for another transition run.
Are you saying it goes back and forth? If so, what makes you think it does that?
Quote:
Brainstem said:
This I speculate is due to an inherent pull from the present point which is neutralized in the past.
I'm not sure I'm getting you... are you saying that the present fulls the future into itself, and that the this pull is neutralized by the past?
Sorry, but this is getting quite complicated for me. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Brainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: PatrickKn]
#15367647 - 11/14/11 12:55 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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The torus may need to occupy a fifth dimension, but wouldn't the fourth dimension be the toroidal mass of potential cycling through the three dimensional space at it's core ?
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PatrickKn
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367679 - 11/14/11 01:08 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brainstem said:
The torus may need to occupy a fifth dimension, but wouldn't the fourth dimension be the toroidal mass of potential cycling through the three dimensional space at it's core ?
More or less, which is why I think it'd be mostly impossible in any biological state without the ability to ignore the 4th dimension when connecting with the 5th dimension. Any singular action from any molecule changing in any 3rd dimension would create an entirely separate universe, both forever changing it's third AND fourth dimensions permanently, leaving the original dimension behind to go wherever it was going.
In short, I don't think time travel is possible unless you are the cosmic whole rather than a creature on any given planet. The entire universe as a whole would need to fold into the 5th dimension for any part of the third (including yourself) to be able to go into it, effectively making impossible any time travel possibilities (to the past). Going into the future seems more possible.
Edited by PatrickKn (11/14/11 01:15 AM)
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Brainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367698 - 11/14/11 01:17 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
unlimited amount of possible events that previously occurred
Is this the same as infinite potential ?, I think so.
Quote:
Not sure what you mean by "most of the potential is untouched"... might you expand on that concept?
If we are talking about all the potential required to manifest a universes life time of existence, then the amount of potential required to light the bulb for one moment is tiny in comparison.
To illustrate a bit more I added the animation, sorry if I'm not being coherent. I see the potential being drawn through the singularity at the core of the doughnut, similar to the way gravity effects matter, then upon passing through the core, the direction of this force changes and causes the potential to slingshot back around. It wouldn't pass through the core because there is only a one directional flow.
If you look at the animation you see that it is only the inner funnelling of the doughnut that passes through the present, the rest exists outside of three dimensional space.
I think I'm reaching the limits of my ability to communicate this idea. 
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PatrickKn
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15367710 - 11/14/11 01:20 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Exactly! The potential energy needed to move an entire universe forward would be much more than it would take to move just a person through time. However I think that you would need to move the entire universe in the fourth dimension to possibly get anything done in the third, thus making time travel impossible in the biological state.
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Brainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: PatrickKn]
#15367724 - 11/14/11 01:26 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Time travel may be about reversing the flow of potential through the present, rather than moving through time to a given point. This kind of dynamic encompasses the whole universe, which would be the three dimensional space nestled at the core and the point of transition would be the objective present, but could a similar dynamic apply to our own motion through time as conscious observers ?
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Noteworthy
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: PatrickKn]
#15371405 - 11/14/11 09:00 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:
Exactly! The potential energy needed to move an entire universe forward would be much more than it would take to move just a person through time. However I think that you would need to move the entire universe in the fourth dimension to possibly get anything done in the third, thus making time travel impossible in the biological state.
Im not sure it makes sense to talk about the universe 'moving' forward' through time. Certain objects simply exist at certain points in time. If the ball moves from a to b, it means that the ball is at a at time1 and at b at time2. It doesnt actually move from a to b, but rather, the energy acting on the ball at time1 is consistent with a universe where the ball is at b at time2...
Energy thus is not used to move things through time but to constrict the possible range of universes that are consistent with the present/past.
This is one of the reasons that time travel does not make sense - Energy is never used to propel something backwards in time. The only observed time distortions we have seen are where objects 'move through time' at a slower or faster speed than other objects. This means that the energy acting on those objects is changing at a slower or faster rate. It means that ball at A, with energy E is consistent with different results depending on the relative motion of point A. If point A is moving really fast, then ball with energy E at time1 is only going to get half way to point B by time2.
OK im beginning to possibly become very confusing now so I will stop
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Im not sure any real science backs up time travel.
Methinks you misunderstood. Thre is nothing in the physics equations which rules it out as it does with FTL travel.
It is funny to hear this coming from you. There is nothing in physics equations which rule out God or Aliens or mystical experiences, or any of that shit, but you still are quite opposed to those ideas.
It seems rational to deny time travel, because its never been observed and although its consistent with some laws of physics, it is inconsistent with other laws, and is also inconsistent with any view of the universe other than a purely deterministic, eternalistic view. Once again thats just one possibility along with a range of other weird ones.
So if you will have a conservative skeptical world view, time travel must be relegated to the basket of strange unproven ideas?
I mean, quantum physics theoretically shows that it is consistent that a massive amount of energy will suddenly form out of nowhere, as long as it only happens once in a trillion gazillion years. That moment may as well be tomorrow. But since its just a theoretical possibility that has never been observed and which is inconsistent with our intuitions, we don't take the possibility very seriously.
It seems like the only reason science fans enjoy time travel stories is because they feature heavily in science fiction but not in religious fiction
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Given sufficient power and technology, what do you surmise would happen if you did go back in time and kill your grandfather?
I'm partial to the Mother-in-Law paradox. If you go back and kill your mother-in-law, the sequence of events that eventually lead to you losing the house, car, boat, and savings account to your bitch wife in the divorce will never come to pass and so you'll die rich and happy. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Diploid]
#15371615 - 11/14/11 09:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have often wondered how you got your rose bushes to look so damn healthy. 
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
#15371996 - 11/14/11 10:48 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Im not sure any real science backs up time travel.
Methinks you misunderstood. Thre is nothing in the physics equations which rules it out as it does with FTL travel.
It is funny to hear this coming from you. There is nothing in physics equations which rule out God or Aliens or mystical experiences, or any of that shit, but you still are quite opposed to those ideas.
It seems rational to deny time travel, because its never been observed and although its consistent with some laws of physics, it is inconsistent with other laws, and is also inconsistent with any view of the universe other than a purely deterministic, eternalistic view. Once again thats just one possibility along with a range of other weird ones.
So if you will have a conservative skeptical world view, time travel must be relegated to the basket of strange unproven ideas?
I mean, quantum physics theoretically shows that it is consistent that a massive amount of energy will suddenly form out of nowhere, as long as it only happens once in a trillion gazillion years. That moment may as well be tomorrow. But since its just a theoretical possibility that has never been observed and which is inconsistent with our intuitions, we don't take the possibility very seriously.
It seems like the only reason science fans enjoy time travel stories is because they feature heavily in science fiction but not in religious fiction
Look up Tipler's cylinder. Time travel is theoretically possible to both the future and the past, but only as far back as the creation of the cylinder.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: deCypher]
#15372027 - 11/14/11 10:56 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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You better create your cylinder NOW so that you have something worthwhile to come back to.
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Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: deCypher]
#15372067 - 11/14/11 11:03 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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deCypher said Quote:
Look up Tipler's cylinder. Time travel is theoretically possible to both the future and the past, but only as far back as the creation of the cylinder.
...or as far back as own bodies existence, by shifting our subjective awareness forwards or backwards along the temporal thread of brain activity. (just a thought)
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Jwlst
Stranger
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Posts: 1,338
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
#15372200 - 11/14/11 11:32 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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It seems simple enough to me, I never know why so many people struggle with this paradox but maybe I just simplify it.
I think you would be able to kill your grandpa.
If you travelled back to your present time however, no one would know who you were and there would be no record of you ever existing.
However I personally believe you would still physically exist even after killing your grandpa.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Jwlst]
#15372239 - 11/14/11 11:40 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well that explains my lack of birth certificate and SSN.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Diploid] 2
#15373749 - 11/15/11 10:45 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Actually, here's the thing. Warning: if you have ADD, this is going to be a long post. But it's interesting and weird so give it a shot.
There are two parts to the question of time travel, into the past and into the future. I'll cover the simpler one first, to the future.
Time travel to the future is possible, but there's a catch (see below). Believe it or not, EVERY time you move with respect to something else, you travel into the future with respect to the not-moving object. This is a consequence of the theory of Special Relativity.
The time predictions of the theory have long ago been confirmed experimentally and are actually used in practical applications like GPS where very accurate timing is important. If the very slight time travel of the GPS satellites were not corrected for in the equations that characterize the system, GPS would not work. I mean this literally. GPS satellites time travel into the future. Really!
In fact, everything that moves with respect to something else time travels. When you fly somewhere in an airliner, you time travel. The only reason you don't notice it is because at ordinary day-to-day human speeds, the effect is very tiny so your wrist watch can't detect it. But this has been confirmed using very accurate atomic clocks. Two atomic clocks are exactly synchronized, then one is left on the ground while the other flies in an airplane. When the plane lands, the two clocks are compared and the result is that the flying clock's time is a few nanoseconds ahead of the one that remained on the ground. This effect is called Time Dilation and it's a central theme in relativity theory. The faster the moving object goes, the more time dilation occurs.
Weird, eh? Well, it gets weirder.
Light (or radio waves which are just light at a frequency our eyes can't detect) takes about 10 minutes to get from here to Mars. If we sent an astronaut to Mars, we couldn't have an ordinary radio conversation with him. We'd have to say something into the microphone, then wait 10 minutes for him to get the message. When he replies, we'd have to wait another 10 minutes to hear the reply.
Now imagine you hop on a rocket that travels very close to c (physicists use the lower-case letter "c" to represent the speed of light). Understand that when I say "very close" I mean REALLY very close. Even though there's a tiny numerical difference between 99.999% c and 99.999999999999999999999999% c, there's a very big difference in the resulting time dilation. It's what math geeks call asymptotic. So I'm talking 99.(a million more nines)% c here. Extremely close to c but just a hair less. So imagine you hop on a rocket that travels that fast and head out to Mars. When you get there, it will have seemed (to you) like only one second passed. Your heart beat once and you're there. Your watch second hand ticked just once and you're there. But time will seem normal to you. You wouldn't notice anything different at all, just the passing of one second of time.
But back on Earth, everyone watching your trip saw it take a whole 10 minutes. Their heart beat many times and the minute hand on their watch ticked off 10 minutes.
If you had a telescope looking at people on earth, in the one second that passed for you during the trip, you saw people on Earth zipping around very quickly. If you pointed your telescope at Big Ben, the clock tower in London, you would have seen the minute hand zip across 10 minutes during your one heartbeat that it took to get to Mars.
Meanwhile, if someone back on Earth pointed a telescope at you in the rocket, he would have seen you nearly frozen still for the whole trip. He would have seen the second hand on your watch tick off one second during the 10 minutes your trip took from his point of view.
So you see that if you get to Mars and immediately turn around and return to Earth, when you got back, you would have experienced two heartbeats and your watch's second hand would have ticked twice. But if you compare with every else's watch, you would notice that your watch would be 20 minutes behind everyone else's.
Now weirder still. Imagine that instead of Mars, your trip was WAY out to the Andromeda Galaxy. Here's a pic I made in 1993:
Andromeda is 2.5 million light years away. It takes light (from our point of view) 2.5 million years to cover the distance there. Now imagine hopping on your rocket again and taking off for Andromeda. When you get there, it will seem like to you as if an hour passed. You wouldn't have to wait 2.5 million years because, again, due to your very high speed, time dilation makes your personal time pass differently than it does on Earth. But again, you wouldn't notice anything different. You'd walk around, maybe have some lunch, read a book, then an hour later (to you) you're at Andromeda.
But back on Earth, 2.5 million years passed. If someone on Earth pointed a telescope at you, they would have seen you almost frozen still because you will have done one-hour's worth of activity during 2.5 million years from Earth's point of view. If you pointed a telescope back at Earth, you would have seen a blur of activity. For every second that ticked off on your watch, 40,000 years will have passed back on Earth. Civilizations would have come and gone every time your watch ticked off one second. But other than the strange sight in your telescope, everything else would seem perfectly normal to you. One hour would pass and your trip is over.
Now here's the catch I mentioned. If you get to Andromeda then turn around and head back to Earth, you'd arrive in another hour from your point of view. A two-hour round trip (for you). But Earth will have experienced another 2.5 million years during your return trip. A total of 5 million years will have passed on Earth after your 2-hour round trip. All your friends and family will be long dead and you'd have a huge electric bill from that night-light you forgot to turn off when you left.
So in this sense it IS possible to time travel into the future. In two hours (to you) 5 million years (to Earth) passed and so you time traveled 5 million years into the future. And again, this is not hypothetical. This is a verified effect and so well-understood that it allows us to create the GPS system which wouldn't work without this understanding.
OK, now time travel into the past.
Although there is no known hard limit on time travel into the past, most physicists consider it unlikely to be possible. There are mathematical results that show backward time travel can hapen, but it's believed with high confidence that they're spurious. Here's a simple example of how these results can come about and why they're unlikely to have any physical relevance.
Recall from high school geometry class how to figure the surface area of a square. Say you have a square piece of plywood with a surface area of 9 square centimeters. What is the length of each side?
Well, if the square's surface area is 9 square cm, then each side must be square root of 9 centimeters long. The square root of 9 is 3 because 3 x 3 = 9.
The piece of wood is 3cm x 3cm. That gives you a total of 9 square cm of wood. The problem occurs in that 9 has two square roots, 3 and -3 because 3 * 3 = 9 and also -3 * -3 = 9.
But it is meaningless to say that the square in question has sides of length -3 cm even though the math tells you that such a square with negative length sides would indeed have a surface area of 9 cm. The math is interesting from an academic point of view, but it has no relevance to the physical world because pieces of wood can't have negative lengths.
This theme repeats in the concept of the Tachyon (faster than light particle) which is another mathematical curiosity that has nothing to do with reality. If tachyons existed, they would have a mass of something absurd like square root of -1 grams, which is meaningless (actually, it would be square root of -1 times some coefficient, but that's not important here).
I never say never, but it seems likely that time travel into the past is a similar curiosity but with no physical relevance. I'd love to be proven wrong though.
There's a related question that hasn't been settled regarding the quantization (granularity) of time. Is there a minimum interval of time that has physical meaning? There are some good theoretical reason that this might be true and some experimental evidence that suggests it.
This might be a little too technical for this thread, but the geeks in the audience will get it so I'll throw it out. Consider the energy of a photon. It is the product of a physical constant (Planck's constant) times the frequency of the light the photon represents. Because E = hc / lamda and c = lamda * v, therefore E = hv. But frequency (v) is the reciprocal of time, so they're in lock-step. Each frequency represents exactly one period (one time interval).
It is known that only discrete frequencies are possible for a photon. No in-between frequencies are allowed by the quantization of quantum mechanics. So if there is a one-to-one mapping from frequency to period (time interval), and only certain frequencies are possible, then only certain time intervals are possible. No in-between time intervals can occur in the wavelength of light. At least with respect to photon energy.
That's not anywhere near proof that time is quantized, but it one point of evidence (and there are others) that has some potentially deep implication. The time it takes for a photon to experience one wavelength is discontinuous. It can take a certain amount of time or a certain longer amount of time, but it can never take an in-between amount of time. Again, not proof, but food for thought.
I'll shut up now. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Diploid]
#15373758 - 11/15/11 10:47 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
We'd have to say something into the microphone, then wait 10 minutes for him to get the message. When he replies, we'd have to wait another 10 minutes to hear the reply.
How is that different than talking to a stoner?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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OMG! You just discovered stoner time travel! You should publish! 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Diploid]
#15373764 - 11/15/11 10:49 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Here's a pic I made in 1993:
Are you the one waving?
That's a fucking awesome pic btw. What size scope and how long was the exposure?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Diploid]
#15373767 - 11/15/11 10:50 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Now weirder still. Imagine that instead of Mars, your trip was WAY out to the Andromeda Galaxy. Here's a pic I made in 1993:
Took that out the porthole of your space ship as you passed by?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Icelander]
#15373772 - 11/15/11 10:52 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Dammit! I hate when you beat me to the punch by mere seconds. 
And scary that we think somewhat alike. 
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Diploid]
#15373795 - 11/15/11 10:56 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I never say never...
You really think your chance of banging Charlize Theron is > 0?
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
While philosophical conundrums largely reject the possibility of time travel; physics as it is today, does not. Given sufficient power and technology, what do you surmise would happen if you did go back in time and kill your grandfather?
I dont think anything would happen. Not anything out of the ordinary at least. The particles and proteins that make up your body dont have a memory, they dont 'know' their history. They dont give a crap if your grandpa dies before you are born or not. The paradox is an issue with our memory and the way we want things to be, not the way particles actually behave.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Dammit! I hate when you beat me to the punch by mere seconds.
And scary that we think somewhat alike.
In those two seconds you aged 2.5 million years. You really don't show it that much. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Icelander]
#15373843 - 11/15/11 11:05 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's a fucking awesome pic btw. What size scope and how long was the exposure?
Thanks! That was made with a Takahashi 7" apo refractor on a clock drive. It was hand-guided for 90 minutes. Even though the telescope is mounted on a clock drive, you still have to look in the eyepiece and make minor corrections to the clock speed to keep perfect registration. Otherwise, tiny imperfections in the gears would slightly slow and speed the clock and smear the image.
It was exposed on Fuji 400 color film that was specially hyper-sensitized by exposing the film to pressurized hydrogen for 24 hours before the exposure. I used something called a "cold camera" that uses dry ice to cool the film during the exposure. This reduces fogging from stray light and improves a property of film called reciprocity so the background remains very black and overall contrast improves. That's why the galaxy stands out so well.
I shot it under dark skies at the Southern Cross Astronomical Society's Winter Star Party in the Florida Keys in 1993.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Diploid]
#15373854 - 11/15/11 11:08 AM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Diploid]
#15374190 - 11/15/11 12:40 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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So I guess you could say you have a passing interest in Astronomy.
I had a Celestron 102mm Richfield Refractor for awhile and I borrowed a friends 35mm camera and just got some film at the grocery store for dark shots. I didn't even have a camera attachment but held it up to the eye piece. I got some amazing shots of the moon and a really cool one of the moon coming up behind the mountain silhouetting some trees. The moon behind the trees looked huge and you could see some of the craters on the moon. It was really beautiful and pure luck with the timing and position.
I always wanted to do more but I'm really lazy.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Icelander]
#15374246 - 11/15/11 12:54 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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So I guess you could say you have a passing interest in Astronomy.
Not so much any more, but I was into it big time years ago. I was even a director of the Southern Cross Astronomical Society for a while.
BTW, you can see Andromeda naked-eye under dark skies. It looks like a smudge. In the 90mm you just got, you should be able to resolve the spiral arms under medium magnification. Give it a shot!
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Diploid]
#15374276 - 11/15/11 01:01 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Did you notice my bowing graemlins are out of sync - thus reproving Einstein's theory.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Diploid]
#15374652 - 11/15/11 02:32 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
So I guess you could say you have a passing interest in Astronomy.
Not so much any more, but I was into it big time years ago. I was even a director of the Southern Cross Astronomical Society for a while.
BTW, you can see Andromeda naked-eye under dark skies. It looks like a smudge. In the 90mm you just got, you should be able to resolve the spiral arms under medium magnification. Give it a shot!
I had some 100mm Astronomy binocs for awhile. Great for Andromeda. Can't wait until it crashes into us. Other than terrestrial the new scope will likely be used mostly for moon gazing and then Jupiter and Saturn. It's funny that I've had much bigger scopes but I've always wanted that C-90 or the Meade version. Should give some great views on those.
The most fun I've had was traveling to the High Desert in Washington State and going to Goldendale Observatory State Park which is a five-acre educational facility on a 2,100-foot-high hilltop. The observatory houses one of the nation's largest public telescopes and has attracted sky-watchers since its opening in 1973. The observatory is open to anyone who wants to view the universe. There is nothing out there but desert for many miles and this one two thousand foot hill with the Observatory. It's spooky fun.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 765
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Icelander]
#15374838 - 11/15/11 05:01 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can't wait until it crashes into us.
Amusing. 
I imagine this point in history will be something of an 'eye opener' for the species. Oh, many shall awaken this day.
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Desert Elf]
#15374883 - 11/15/11 05:08 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well crash is really kind of dramatic. When our galaxies merge it won't be with much of a bang. There is still a lot of distance between those stars.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 765
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Icelander]
#15374999 - 11/15/11 05:23 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Perhaps it will be so gentle it actually 'docks' with our galaxy, parking Earth's significant cosmic other right next door. At this moment we will all get divorced and be introduced by God to our long lost soul mates. All beings finally complete, live happily ever after in peace and joy.
... probably a few casualties along the way though. 
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Desert Elf]
#15375724 - 11/15/11 07:06 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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A very small amount of suns and planets will collide most likely.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Icelander]
#15375805 - 11/15/11 07:21 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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The critters on those worlds won't mind - much. As they burn to a crisp in a fiery hell, they shall know the Love of God.
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Desert Elf
Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 765
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
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Amen
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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat
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OneWhoHasSeen
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