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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Grandfather paradox
    #15365948 - 11/13/11 07:55 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

While philosophical conundrums largely reject the possibility of time travel; physics as it is today, does not. Given sufficient power and technology, what do you surmise would happen if you did go back in time and kill your grandfather?

More importantly, what kind of a psychotic super-fuck would you have to be to waste such a chronistic adventure by killing dead relatives? :mad2:


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (11/14/11 03:27 AM)


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InvisibleSly Stone

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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15366067 - 11/13/11 08:33 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Humans are the ultimate prey.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15366114 - 11/13/11 08:45 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
what do you surmise would happen if you did go back in time and kill your grandfather?




I can't say for certain, but hopefully I'll get to him before he is able to travel to the future and impregnated my granddaughter. :satansmoking:


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15366594 - 11/13/11 10:41 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
While philosophical conundrums largely reject the possibility of time travel; physics as it is today, does not. Given sufficient power and technology, what do you surmise would happen if you did go back in time and kill your grandfather?

More importantly, what kind of a psychotic super-fuck would you have to be to waste such an cronistic adventure by killing dead relatives? :mad2:




Im not sure any real science backs up time travel. Its massive speculation on levels far removed from experimental tests. Or have you got some new evidence on the contrary?

If The past and future were causally linked, then in order to kill your grandfather, you would have had to already kill your grandfather. If you killed your grandfather, then he wouldn't really be your grandfather because your grandfather is someone who gave birth to your parents.


The only way it is possible is if you go back in time and into another parallel universe. But I'm not sure we would call that true time travel


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OfflineDesert Elf

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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15366630 - 11/13/11 10:46 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

I dont think you would make it though the other side, the energy alone would melt all those particles into a resulting vapour, suitable for time travel... when it re-emerges at any point within the dimesions of space time, it is at a tiny scale.. Right now there are instance of high energy matter emerging from other spacetime dimensions all around you.


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Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
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OfflineTheChillMovement
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15366646 - 11/13/11 10:49 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

I think that the "accepted" answer to that paradox is thus:

The millisecond you travel aback in time (although it is currently impossible under current human understanding), a parallel time warp opens, causing two separate realities. You would kill your grandfather, and in that reality, your family would not exist.  In your own personal reality, everything would be the same.  These two realities will exist together as separate entities, yet somehow dependent upon each other.

Then again, this is assuming that the past even exists!!  Remember, the past is nothing more than human generated memories.  So, it may be physically impossible to go back in time, but only THINK that you are because it is in your own mind!!

WHAT!?!?1


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: TheChillMovement]
    #15366717 - 11/13/11 11:02 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

The present is all there is ?, this is where I would normally place my money, but who knows.
The past moments of our lives may be irredeemable or they may be ever present, our futures may
be a prewoven rug road, already laid out ahead of us, or they may be undecided until reaching the singularity of manifestation that is the now. If the past no longer exists, would time travel require us to revive past moments in the present ? Another interesting question would be; If time travel became possible, would an individuals consciousness be able to travel further back than it's conception ?

Is the future pre-determined and the past forever lost ?
Is the future unwritten and the past a testament to the present ?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15366911 - 11/13/11 11:37 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Im not sure any real science backs up time travel.




Methinks you misunderstood. Thre is nothing in the physics equations which rules it out as it does with FTL travel.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
    #15366933 - 11/13/11 11:41 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

The present is all there is ?,




Subjectively true, but from a physics perspective there is no such thing as 'now'.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15366982 - 11/13/11 11:49 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

So our angle on time is all completely subjective ?

Does that indicate that our experiences are ever present, but that the linear appearance of existence is just the way the brain presents it to us ?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
    #15367071 - 11/14/11 12:06 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Does that indicate that our experiences are ever present, but that the linear appearance of existence is just the way the brain presents it to us ?




That is one perspective. As time and space are two aspects of the same thing, it is possible that there is nothing flowing from one moment to the next and that is mere a brain illusion. Everything that ever was and will be could all be there simultaneously.

Picture the Hubble Telescope when we see a distant star exploding billions of light years away. It is happening now from our brain's and eye's perspective, yet we say it happened billions of years ago. Which is 'correct'?


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15367134 - 11/14/11 12:19 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

I would say objectively it happened billions of years ago,
but that the light we perceive as happening now is like an echo. :shrug:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #15367144 - 11/14/11 12:22 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Given sufficient power and technology, what do you surmise would happen if you did go back in time and kill your grandfather?


There are several different possibilities...

Maybe there are an infinite number of universes corresponding to every single possible time period; for example, one traveling back in time to one second ago would be traveling to a different universe than the one they came from, which would mean that their actions in the universe they traveled to wouldn't effect events in the universe they came from. This would mean that one can travel back in time to another universe and kill their grandfather in that universe, without causing a "paradox", because events in the universe they traveled to wouldn't effect events in the universe they came from, and thus wouldn't effect them (since it is a universe that is completely independent from the universe they came from).

There is also the possibility that, when one travels back in time, they literally "reverse time" in the universe they were born in; this would mean that, if they went back in time and killed their grandfather, they would cause a paradox and thus cease to exist (due to the paradox they caused).


Perhaps there are several different possible methods of time travel, which each can potentially cause different effects; I don't know enough about physics to give a definite, concrete answer, but this is basically my thoughts on time travel, given my limited knowledge.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Poid]
    #15367187 - 11/14/11 12:32 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Have you seen The One with Jet li ?

I think it's based on the many worlds theory, but the twist is that each version of the same individual is assigned his or her ration of energy and as the character in the story moves through dimensions executing his parallel selves, the energy is divided up among the remaining versions. It's sort of like the quickening in the Highlander movies.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15367266 - 11/14/11 12:49 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
As time and space are two aspects of the same thing, it is possible that there is nothing flowing from one moment to the next and that is mere a brain illusion. Everything that ever was and will be could all be there simultaneously.


I think this is a non sequitur; I don't see how the proposition "Everything that ever was and will be could all be there simultaneously" follows from the premise "time and space are two aspects of the same thing". It could be that time and space are two aspects of the same thing, and that "everything that ever was and will be" isn't all there simultaneously.


Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Picture the Hubble Telescope when we see a distant star exploding billions of light years away. It is happening now from our brain's and eye's perspective, yet we say it happened billions of years ago. Which is 'correct'?


Our perception of it may be happening now, but we know what we're seeing happened billions of years ago due to our ability to measure its distance from us.

We are able to measure a celestial body's intrinsic brightness (i.e. absolute magnitude), and compare it to its apparent brightness (i.e. apparent magnitude); this means that we can measure a body's actual brightness (or actual output of photons), and compare to its brightness as seen from an observer on Earth (or the actual output of photons that reach an observer on Earth [normalized to the value it would have in the absence of the atmosphere]). We are able to do this due to our ability to accurately calculate the distances of celestial objects from us.


I think both our perception of a distant star exploding billions of light years away, and our theory that what we're perceiving originally occurred billions of years ago are both correct; we know that what we're perceiving happened billions of years ago because of our measures of its intrinsic and apparent brightness, and because of our measure of its distance from us.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (11/14/11 01:27 AM)


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem] * 1
    #15367276 - 11/14/11 12:52 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)



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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Poid]
    #15367295 - 11/14/11 12:58 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

I think this is a non sequitur; I don't see how the proposition "Everything that ever was and will be could all be there simultaneously" follows from the premise "time and space are two aspects of the same thing". It could be that time and space are two aspects of the same thing, and that "everything that ever was and will" isn't all there simultaneously.





Picture length or distance. While you have to move from one point to the next to the next to go from beginning to end; that does not mean that the entire length was not already there.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: NetDiver]
    #15367313 - 11/14/11 01:03 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

That's awesome, I don't fully understand all the jargon but I'll read it again.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: Brainstem]
    #15367323 - 11/14/11 01:05 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)



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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Grandfather paradox [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15367355 - 11/14/11 01:16 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Right. According to physics, time is a dimension, with coordinates just like space.



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