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C_T
Stranger



Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 335
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: milkman]
#8603761 - 07/07/08 11:09 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
milkman said: wheres your source that its a placebo
me, im my source that it works
o yea i work in sleep disorders too
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=161743
This study shows the polysomnography of people on melatonin isn't statistically different than placebo.
Its not the study i was referring to, but they did use EEG setup, and thats what counts, Sleep stages. Not your subjective feelings of how you slept.
"As shown in Fig. 1, there were no significant differences in sleep efficiency between the placebo, 0.3-mg melatonin and 1.0-mg melatonin treatments (p = 0.92). As shown in Fig. 2, there were no significant differences in total sleep time between the 3 treatments (p = 0.77). Also, there were no statistical differences in latency to any sleep stage between placebo, 0.3 mg and 1.0 mg of melatonin (stage 1, p = 0.72; stage 2, p = 0.14; delta stage, p = 0.42)"
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milkman
DeliveringWorldWide



Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 2,108
Loc: tha FLA
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: C_T]
#8603766 - 07/07/08 11:10 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Edited by milkman (07/07/08 11:11 AM)
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rick0909
Stranger



Registered: 01/21/08
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: C_T]
#8603776 - 07/07/08 11:13 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well I have taken melatonin after being recommended by a co-worker to help me sleep. It does seem to help. I would take one pill and within an hour I would be sleeping. Usually I would lie awake in bed for hours before actually falling asleep. I guess the placebo effect could have been there because I was expecting it to make me sleep. Either way it does something. Dreams are more vivid after taking it and I seem to go into a deeper sleep than I would without it. Have yet to try it while shrooming but I could imagine if I stayed awake I would feel more relaxed or have more visuals. Just my 2 cents.
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Ophanim
The Molecule'sSpirit



Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 1,002
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: C_T]
#8603780 - 07/07/08 11:14 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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If I recall correctly, DMT - The Spirit Molecule by Rick Strassman mentioned that melatonin is a placebo only when used for some psychoactive effect. It was found to be a sleep aid.
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rick0909
Stranger



Registered: 01/21/08
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: milkman]
#8603800 - 07/07/08 11:19 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks for that link. I noticed that if taken more than 2 days in a row it wouldn't work for me anymore. Now I only take it when I really need to fall asleep fast. Was wondering why it stopped working, now I know.
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milkman
DeliveringWorldWide



Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 2,108
Loc: tha FLA
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: rick0909]
#8603813 - 07/07/08 11:22 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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same thing happened to me and now i only take when needed
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ShroomDoom
Friend of the Medicine



Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 4,435
Loc: A Psychedelic State
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: milkman]
#8603854 - 07/07/08 11:36 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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my acharya (a monk that teaches yoga and meditation) told me that the best time to meditate was 3am, because the melatonin and other pineal secretions are at their highest point in the night. perhaps taking a melatonin might zip your biological clock into a sort of constant 3am state, contributing to the trip somewhat.
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C_T
Stranger



Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 335
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: milkman]
#8603857 - 07/07/08 11:36 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Of course all papers need to be taken with a grain of salt. Especially ones with only say 20 or 30 participants. You really need 3000+ people in the study to trust it.
If you have a regular sleep schedule (ie not a shift worker) then natural exposure to sunlight will give the same sleep quality as suplementing melatonin.
Now, if you were blind (ie retina cannot stimulate natural melatonin) then yeah, you'll most likely benefit.
Anyway, i'm over this topic, do whatever you want
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist


Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: C_T]
#8606177 - 07/07/08 09:54 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Wow, I knew people would be questioning the effect of melatonin on shrooms, but it didn't occur to me that anyone would argue that all melatonins effects are merely placebo. The study someone posted was a meta-analysis conducted by MIT scientists. They were able to identify a clear effect on sleep that was well beyond any placebo effect.
I don't know if there are any studies on the effects of melatonin on dreaming, but I do know anecdotally that most people I know who have tried it did notice more vivid, wilder dreams. I would wager to bet that if studied, an effect would be observed here as well.
And of course, its just a hunch at this point, but I believe melatonin has an effect on the psilocybin experience.
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LuSyD
Zembvoun-Vounauw



Registered: 12/02/06
Posts: 210
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: mofo]
#8606246 - 07/07/08 10:11 PM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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I took 75mg of melatonin once and within an hour and a half I was definitely feeling a shift in perception of the thing known as "consciousness", however I was unable to stay awake for any longer than 2 hours after the supplement was consumed.
Melatonin is released by the pineal gland in response to lower light levels. Some people believe melatonin is meant to help us fall asleep but this is just speculation. Anywhoo if anyone is genuinely interested in the "potentization of psychedelic effects via melatonin supplementation" theory, I would suggest taking a 30-100mg dose of melatonin during a trip and you could probably have a good idea of wheather it is placebo or wheather the forementioned concept is "f0 r33Lz".
Also, I would recommend melatonin supplements containing vitamin B6 before sleep. These are known to make your dreams even more vivid than just melatonin alone. They also increase the chances of having a lucid dream
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C_T
Stranger



Registered: 11/09/07
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Loc: Australia
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: LuSyD]
#8607039 - 07/08/08 04:22 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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Dreams happen in REM sleep, this can be recorded with polysomnography.
The link i posted showed no difference in sleep archetecture. That mean no more time dreaming. Whether you remember your dream is subjective, the total amound is how much brain/memory functions are occuring.
Stage 3 and 4 is Slow Wave Sleep (or delta waves) this is where HGH is secreted and the body is repaired.
The average person has approx 20% REM, and 20% SWS.
ps. I didn't say it had no effect, i said it had no sedative effect. That is the placebo. Phase shifting the circadium rhythm is its effect.
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Innominate


Registered: 06/12/05
Posts: 2,136
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: C_T]
#8607313 - 07/08/08 07:22 AM (15 years, 7 months ago) |
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All I know is I took melatonin for the first time in months the other night and I slept so well I couldn't believe it. My body was actually waking itself up for once! It doesn't make me tired, but it seems to give me more, and better, REM sleep.
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Grizvok
I Yam what I Yam



Registered: 09/12/08
Posts: 1,209
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: C_T]
#9598074 - 01/12/09 09:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
C_T said: Of course all papers need to be taken with a grain of salt. Especially ones with only say 20 or 30 participants. You really need 3000+ people in the study to trust it.
If you have a regular sleep schedule (ie not a shift worker) then natural exposure to sunlight will give the same sleep quality as suplementing melatonin.
Now, if you were blind (ie retina cannot stimulate natural melatonin) then yeah, you'll most likely benefit.
Anyway, i'm over this topic, do whatever you want
You should at least acknowledge the FACT that because you know of one study where it tested as being unresponsive that does not mean in any way shape or form that it disproves another study showing its effectiveness is proven.
Bad bad statistics my boy, but it has helped me sleep in the past before. Hell, I've taken 25mg of melatonin and been knocked the fuck out pretty quickly.
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TreeMoss
I live in a Fox Hole


Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 1,615
Last seen: 15 years, 24 days
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: Grizvok]
#9598232 - 01/12/09 09:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Vitamin C only helps your body absorb things such as drugs, it really isn't going to increase a trip other than the dosage absorbed.
Melatonin for some does increase vividness of dreams, I find an association with that melatonin feeling (a natural feeling, not from a pill) with vivid dreams.........maybe it plays a role someplace with being healthy and calm......
-------------------- Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas. Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand. Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.
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Rocker232
Stranger


Registered: 10/17/08
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: mofo]
#9599274 - 01/13/09 01:47 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
mofo said: Actually, you can sleep more easily than without. Both times I've fallen asleep while still coming down. The most recent time, I fell asleep while still seeing kaleidoscopes! That is a pleasant way to nod off.
I could never fall asleep if I still had CEV's, they're far too interesting to not ponder.
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With Allure I Look to the Sky With Awakened Eyes
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Saviorself187
Self-Reliant Vagrant


Registered: 01/27/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Alabama
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: The Melatonin Effect [Re: mofo]
#15323631 - 11/04/11 06:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think that the chemical that would most likely give you the effect you're looking for is 5-HTP. 5-HTP (which is an endogenous biosynthate made from L-tryptophan inside the body) is used in the biosynthesis of serotonin. Serotonin is one of the primary neurotransmitters; the release of which (or mimicking of) is responsible for your basic serotonergic entheogenic reactions, being psilocybin, DMT, etc.
I'm not really sure how much 5-HTP would affect things to be honest, especially when using a tryptamine because they mimic serotonin instead of releasing it, which results in less of a body load in my experience.
That said, I'm pretty damn sure that 5-HTP would have more of an effect than melatonin; especially when using serotonin releasing agents, such as MDMA and a few obscure designer tryptamines, like the "CTs" and the "AETs," because it would help replenish what had been exhausted. Tryptamines are not used exclusively by the body for entheogenic reactions ya know . . .
-------------------- In any weather, at any hour of the day or night, I have been anxious to improve the nick of time, and notch it on my stick too; to stand on the meeting of two eternities, the past and the future, which is precisely the present moment; to toe that line. Henry David Thoreau, Walden
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thedream
The Most High


Registered: 12/25/10
Posts: 592
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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I have an interesting anecdotal experience with melatonin and 2c-i. I hooked my two buddies up with ab 20 mgs of 2c-i with 1.5mgs melatonin, thinking it would synergixe well, maybe mellow out the 2c-i a bit. Well what happened was it appeared that the melatonin delayed the onset of 2-3 hrs. So instead of kicking in within an horu or so, my buddies didn't feel it kicking in for atleast 2-3 hrs.
One of them called me around the 2 hr. mark after he dosed and said he didn't feel shit, then I get a voicemail the next day exclaiming what a awesome trip he's having which he sent me around 6 in the morning. I don't know what happened to be honest but I can confidently deduce the melatonin delayed the absorption of the 2c-i or something to that effect. Perhaps the two compete for the same receptor and melatonin has a higher affintiy to the receptor site? I donno merely speculation......
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