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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Phred]
    #1532327 - 05/08/03 08:52 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

You proved nothing of the sort.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (05/08/03 08:53 PM)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1532354 - 05/08/03 09:01 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah I did. In the Welfare thread.

Short proof

pinky


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1532358 - 05/08/03 09:02 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Silversoul, read my link in the previous post...what do you make of it?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Phred]
    #1532365 - 05/08/03 09:05 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

All you succeeded in proving is that you BELIEVE in objective morality, not that it actually exists.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1532451 - 05/08/03 09:42 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Not so. I proved through a logical chain based on observable reality that objective morality exists. Please point out which link in the chain is erroneous. Should be easy -- I numbered them for you.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Phred]
    #1532501 - 05/08/03 10:00 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Ok, let's have a look at your post:
Quote:

1 Humans are born with the ability to act -- it is an attribute of their nature. No one need grant freedom of action to a human, it is an observable fact that humans act volitionally.

2 Any human must perform a series of consciously directed actions in order to remain alive. Again, there is no need to prove this -- it is an observable fact.

3 -- It follows, then, that any action one human undertakes which nullifies the freedom of action of another human reduces the ability of said human to remain alive.

4 -- Hence, the only time it is correct to interfere with the actions of another human is when his actions prevent another human from acting as he sees fit.

5 -- Since only physical force (and by extension, fraud) can prevent a human from acting as he sees fit, it is only the initiation of physical force by humans against other humans which need be addressed.



I have no problem with 1 and 2, but in 3 you make a logical fallacy in assuming that all actions we perform are necessary to remain alive. This is simply not the case. This nullifies the next two arguments, since they rest upon that assumption.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1532925 - 05/08/03 11:48 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Animals are killed brutally by other animals, for food, defense, mating rituals, leadership, any number of reasons

This is why flames should be allowed


Don't worry about the flames, they wouldn't be worth reading anyway. Just try and prove your point. Give us a list of animals that kill each other in mating rituals or "leadership" battles. You can also list us the your mysterious "any number of reasons" when they kill each other.

I can think of one - hunting prey.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1532930 - 05/08/03 11:50 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Animals are killed brutally by other animals, for food, defense, mating rituals, leadership, any number of reasons

This is why flames should be allowed


Don't worry about the flames, they wouldn't be worth reading anyway. Just try and prove your point. Give us a list of animals that kill each other in mating rituals or "leadership" battles.



Humans, for one


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (05/08/03 11:50 PM)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1532948 - 05/08/03 11:55 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Yesterday you were sure it was "every single animal capable of killing".


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1532978 - 05/09/03 12:01 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

And I still stand by that statement. Death isn't always the result of mating competition or territorial disputes, but it sometimes is.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1532989 - 05/09/03 12:03 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Fine.  :smirk:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1533826 - 05/09/03 05:24 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

I have no problem with 1 and 2, but in 3 you make a logical fallacy in assuming that all actions we perform are necessary to remain alive. This is simply not the case.

Of course not EVERY SINGLE action we perform is NECESSARY to remain alive, but all actions we consciously choose to perform contribute in some way or other to the manner of life we freely choose to lead. Human life (unlike animal life) is not a range of the moment process. It requires long term planning and delayed gratification.

Further, given the exact same set of circumstances, different humans will choose different actions according to their own judgment. By what criteria can any outside agency decide which specific action furthers the existence of a given human and which does not and therefore may be forcibly interfered with?

For example, one human might choose to use some of his time to play guitar, another to play basketball, a third to play games on his computer. At some point later in their respective lives, the guitarist may end up make his living in a rock band, the basketball player may be a center for the Knicks, the game player may design the next "Doom" and never need to work again.

None of them needed to play with a musical instrument or a round air-filled rubber ball or a joystick, yet all eventually support themselves through those means.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1534216 - 05/09/03 09:51 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)


Give us a list of animals that kill each other in mating rituals or "leadership" battles.

Humans, for one


btw, where are you from? If normal human behaviour in your town is to "brutally kill" during mating rituals it's a place I'll try and avoid.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineWaveRider
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Phred]
    #1534355 - 05/09/03 11:05 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 writes:

Morality is a null concept when applied to beings whose means of survival is instinctual -- i.e. animals. Morality is only applicable to beings whose means of survival is through learning, rational thought, and purposefully-directed actions designed to achieve a long-range goal.
pinky




Animals do have a long range goal: survival to produce viable offsprings. That is the only real important long term goal. As far as animals not having morality, I disagree. If anything animals show deeper morals then humans. Animals display not only family values, they are also capable of unconditional love, valor (to the point of sacrificing themselves to save a member of their group or an offspring), joy, despair, along with numerous others. Is that not morality?


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."

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OfflineWaveRider
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: silversoul7]
    #1534398 - 05/09/03 11:22 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You mention "means of survival." This is what I'm getting at. Morals and laws are the means by which we survive as a society. This doesn't mean these morals are absolute. It just means that it benefits society, and in doing so, benefits the people living within that society.




If this is so then you must agree that animals are moral as they too inhabit a social order.

If there are no moral 'absolutes,' it would mean that no one may judge another, as the interpretation of the law and morals are up to the individual. Meaning that if the law or morality states that one is not to use physical force to discipline a child, does this make it so? In many cultures the use of physical force as a form of discipline is acceptable. Are we right? Are they? Who gets to decide? And what about the implications to the child? Yes, it would prevent people from using force and causing harm to a child but it may be necessary at times. If you need an example of a child who needs a good beating to set it straight, watch any day time talk show airing in the american and some Canadian networks. You will see children who are "out-of-control," often beating their simblings or a grandparent or parent, along with having sex at young age, doing drugs/alchool,ect. Is it okay to punish them with physical force? If so where do you draw the line? If not how would you deal with the situation?


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1534498 - 05/09/03 11:53 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Animals are killed brutally by other animals, for food, defense, mating rituals, leadership, any number of reasons

This is why flames should be allowed


Don't worry about the flames, they wouldn't be worth reading anyway. Just try and prove your point. Give us a list of animals that kill each other in mating rituals or "leadership" battles. You can also list us the your mysterious "any number of reasons" when they kill each other.

I can think of one - hunting prey.




That is not my point, nor is it even closely related. I feel no need to waste my time looking up facts for a topic relating nothing to the one discussed in this thread.

But moose in mating rituals will sometimes lock antlers resulting in the death of both males.

THERE!, does this satisfy you?! care to get over that unrelated statment and comment on the ACTUALL topic?

/me fights the frustration that is alex123...



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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OfflineWaveRider
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1534535 - 05/09/03 12:04 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

How about every single animal capable of killing? Competition over mates is more or less universal.

Don't be so hasty to flame me man. Try and think for just a little while first.

As Rono said, animals killing each other over mating rituals is almost unheard of.




This is not so. Though the death of a competing male during a dual for a female is uncommon, it is not unheard of. For example, male lions who are not quick to backdown to an opposing stronger lion may be injured leading to death. Or what about the black widow spider who will eat their mates up completion of the mating ritual.


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer, the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear, permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Phred]
    #1534547 - 05/09/03 12:09 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 writes:

I have no problem with 1 and 2, but in 3 you make a logical fallacy in assuming that all actions we perform are necessary to remain alive. This is simply not the case.

Of course not EVERY SINGLE action we perform is NECESSARY to remain alive, but all actions we consciously choose to perform contribute in some way or other to the manner of life we freely choose to lead. Human life (unlike animal life) is not a range of the moment process. It requires long term planning and delayed gratification.

Further, given the exact same set of circumstances, different humans will choose different actions according to their own judgment. By what criteria can any outside agency decide which specific action furthers the existence of a given human and which does not and therefore may be forcibly interfered with?

For example, one human might choose to use some of his time to play guitar, another to play basketball, a third to play games on his computer. At some point later in their respective lives, the guitarist may end up make his living in a rock band, the basketball player may be a center for the Knicks, the game player may design the next "Doom" and never need to work again.

None of them needed to play with a musical instrument or a round air-filled rubber ball or a joystick, yet all eventually support themselves through those means.



And in what way does this relate to objective morality?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Phred]
    #1534549 - 05/09/03 12:09 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

1 Humans are born with the ability to act -- it is an attribute of their nature. No one need grant freedom of action to a human, it is an observable fact that humans act volitionally.

I write: Animals also act volintarily, and no one need grant them the ability to act either. I believe the differance is we act with a greater sense of consciousness.

2 Any human must perform a series of consciously directed actions in order to remain alive. Again, there is no need to prove this -- it is an observable fact.

Does a baby consciously feed from its mothers teat? It is born with....instinct, and learns how to behave consciously with the "morals" it is taught. If you are spending you life trying to survive, what is the differance between consciousness and instinct? As it is our instinct to survive which direct our conscious choices needed to survive.

3 -- 5 are all based on 1 and 2, which are debatable as you say "Again, there is no need to prove this ", yet I feel there is a need to prove this as i disagree.

Your post was a statement, not proof, but i would be interested if you care to elaborate. [edit] if it relates to moral absolutes.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

Edited by Azmodeus (05/09/03 12:11 PM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Moral Truths [Re: Xlea321]
    #1534551 - 05/09/03 12:10 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Give us a list of animals that kill each other in mating rituals or "leadership" battles.

Humans, for one


btw, where are you from? If normal human behaviour in your town is to "brutally kill" during mating rituals it's a place I'll try and avoid.



Tell me where I said it was "normal" human behavior. All I said is that it happens.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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