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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
What I love about America...
    #1529046 - 05/07/03 11:49 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

Greets,
I've been reading on alot of posts, and being upset with those that say it, that they "hate" America. I think that the problem is is that "we" are seeing a different America than you are.

When I think of America, I think of the Constitution, of the Bill of Rights.  I think of a group of men deciding they want freedom, and they want to give everyone as much personal freedom.  I think of a nation that has shown time and time again that, as every system can, we make mistakes (systematic racism, oppression of women, etcetara) but the beautiful thing about America is that we've fixed those problems! We have the power to fix problems with our laws.  I realize that America has a great deal of laws that limit personal freedom, and I realize that the war on drugs (among other projects) are horribly restrictive on personal freedoms.  But I love that we can all do what we can to change these laws knowing that it might take 25 years, but we are right, and we can make change.  Looking to the past we can see that when the Majority of America is convinced strongly in something, change is inevitable.  In a nation like Iraq, they did not have this privledge.  They didn't have the power as a people to mobilize and be heard by their government, or to try to change unjust laws.  When you look at America, don't see past failures, or current policy issues that you (and I!) disagree with, see the intial freedoms our forefathers wanted us to have.  Read the founding fathers letters and documents.  I agree that not everything being done today is in accordance with their wishes, but I also would expect anyone to concede that the people do have the power to change unjust laws.  That is the America I love, and I don't think their is any better system, at least in idea, anywhere else in existance.  When you say you "hate america", try to think about this question, do you hate what America was founded as, or what America has become (or current policy), if it's the policy, you should realize that it is what America was founded on, those basic principles, that allow you to voice your opinions, that allow you to try as hard as you want to to get things changed, that allows anti-war protestors to protest in front of the White House, numerous times, without restriction (and WITH a permit signed by government workers!), that allows for us to be on this board posting mesages to each other about how hypotetically people could commitfelonies.  Love the values that America was founded on, even if you hate current policy. 


just more stoned ramblings :smile:


Jr


*EDIT* I'd also like to add that it is these basic values of liberty that I would like to see implemented in Iraq.  I think that we are doing that.  THTA is what I want tho, so when I say I want Americanization in Iraq, that is what I mean.  not a Mcdonalds on every corner  and a starbucks inbetween


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


Edited by JohnnyRespect (05/08/03 12:09 AM)


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Invisiblezeta
Stranger

Registered: 05/25/02
Posts: 3,972
Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530024 - 05/08/03 06:23 AM (18 years, 7 days ago)



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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530047 - 05/08/03 06:57 AM (18 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

I've been reading on alot of posts, and being upset with those that say it, that they "hate" America. I




Where are these posts which you have used as a platform for your "stoned ramblings"?


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: What I love about America... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1530401 - 05/08/03 12:03 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

He'll have forgotten by now.... :smirk:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
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Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1530449 - 05/08/03 12:36 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

Pretty much every post in the entier spectrum of politics has some liberal white-dreadlocker telling us how bad Bush is, and how evil America is. You've also missed the entire scope of the original letter. Thats analogous to reading the post and refering to typos to judge the quality of it.

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530507 - 05/08/03 01:06 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

"but the beautiful thing about America is that we've fixed those problems! We have the power to fix problems with our laws."

This is where I think you are mislead...... Do you really think that more lawyers, more politicians, more legislators, more bureaucracy, and more laws are going to solve this nation's problems?

Don't get me wrong, though - I do see what you're saying - I get that seratonin rush in my brain when I think about how amazing the beginning of this country was ("FUCK YOU, we're goin to the New World"), and the intentions and ingenius put into trying to make a document that would be able to survive the most evil politicians and loophole-jumpers - I suppose they've done the greatest job yet, but even that isn't really anything to be super proud of, because the "greatest yet" in our current situation is far from free.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleBuddha5254
addict
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530591 - 05/08/03 01:42 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

There are more ridiculous contradictions and assumptions in that post than I can shake a stick at.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1530597 - 05/08/03 01:44 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

Strumpling - Do you really think that America hasn't overcome serious assaults on personal liberty before? I can't honestly think how anyone could ever possibly think that any other nations method of rule, again, in THEORY, is better than the American theory of rule (i.e. democracy) If these "more legislators" are people who are forward looking freedom lovers, then yes, I think it's better. Again, you are arguing that CURRENT POLICY is wrong, which I clearly stated in my post I'd concur with (on certain issues). Another thing that you should love about America, no matter how much you HATE the current president, he can onl yserve two terms, and then we are guaranteed as a people another chance to elect someone else. How many other nations does that happen in? Iraq? Iran? I don't think so.

If you are arguing with my post, please argue the wrongness of the intial purpose of America, a religiously oppressed people moving to a new nation, declaring their liberty from a foreign government, and making a place that loves personal freedoms, rather than restricting them. You might think that America has taken away alot of personal freedoms (probably the first example would be the war on drugs) but how many of you REALLY have a problem obtaining drugs? If America was an evil corrupt police state, I guaratee you we'd never have drugs available to us again.

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530679 - 05/08/03 02:12 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

and making a place that loves personal freedoms

As long as you wern't a native american or black...


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530736 - 05/08/03 02:27 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

INITIAL PURPOSE has nothing to do with our current situation - these politicians don't give a SHIT about the initial purpose; in fact, the constitution gets in their way all the time, as intended, but they honestly are trying to go against initial purpose - there is no doubting that our current politicians don't like the constitution, which speaks volumes for its efficiency, but unfortunately its not good enough and they've found the holes they need to make sure we can't "overcome serious assaults on personal liberty," now its just a matter of getting more bills passed and putting more lines on the ground for us to get lost on


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/08/03 02:30 PM)


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/10/99
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530793 - 05/08/03 02:48 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

This America you speak of sounds like a swell place! I can't think of anywhere on earth where foreign policy and legislature can be changed(I'm still required by law to walk instead of ride my horse to church on sundays)! Also how did you guys come up with that limited term for the president being able to serve? It's pure genious!

Your right about it not mattering what something is now as long as it was good at the beginning, cause reminissing is F-U-N!


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


Edited by sir tripsalot (05/08/03 02:51 PM)


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: What I love about America... [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1530817 - 05/08/03 02:59 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

America worries me.

America used to make great movies!  What happened?  :frown: 


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man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/17/03
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Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: pattern]
    #1530837 - 05/08/03 03:07 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

OK, are you all mentall retarded? I specificaly said that the AmericaI love IS that America. Do you not know what "IS" means (sounds familiary)? And again, when you say "how america is now" is what you hate, i explicitly dealt with that. I wish that for once in here, someone would read a post and ACTUALLY respond to that. It's problems like that that get our welfare forum 6 pages deep talking about,you guessed it, Iraq again. READ MY POST AND REPLY TO THAT. thanks.

jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530841 - 05/08/03 03:09 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

I'm done with this thread and all things politcal on these boards. You all need to attend some school of higher learning, put down the remote, turn off MTV and go see what the world is like. I'm sure none of oyu have travelled to any other nations and immersed yourself in their cultures long enough to realize that America, the America that I alluded to, is without a doubt the best thing out there now. Goodbye.


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530892 - 05/08/03 03:23 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

its interesting when people define what america was founded on. sure, it was founded on the bill of rights and the constitution, but it was also founded on slavery and opression. which one had more of an impact on american society? do you think america would be the richest country in the world if it wasnt for all that slavery? free labour for hundreds of years? if you want to be proud of what america was "founded" on, then you should accept that america was founded on oppression, and still functions in a similar manner.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1530899 - 05/08/03 03:25 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

Another thing, someone post me the numbers for how many white slaves were brought from Eurpoe, and how many black slaves from AFrica.  I think we'd all be interested in the numbers :smile: I already know them but if I say the pope is catholic I get the liberal pussy ssquad telling me how i'm wrong, so, you guys seek and find.


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530908 - 05/08/03 03:28 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

what does it matter if they were black or white, they were still slaves. Im aware that the british used the scottish as slaves, but im quite sure that america used primarily black slaves. what are your sources for these numbers anyways?


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Anonymous

Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1530910 - 05/08/03 03:29 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

its interesting when people define what america was founded on. sure, it was founded on the bill of rights and the constitution, but it was also founded on slavery and opression.

it was a concession that had to be made to get the southern states on board for the revolution. believe me, alot of good men objected to it, but there would have been no independence without slavery.

which one had more of an impact on american society?

if you think that slavery had more of an impact on american society than the bill of rights and the constitution, you're a fool.

do you think america would be the richest country in the world if it wasnt for all that slavery? free labour for hundreds of years?

and if you think that, you're also a fool.

if you want to be proud of what america was "founded" on, then you should accept that america was founded on oppression, and still functions in a similar manner.

bullshit... i guess that's to be expected from an englishman on this subject though...


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1530923 - 05/08/03 03:32 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

It's true that the U.S. allowed slavery when it was founded. However, it is ignorant to state that it was founded on that institution and opression. I suggest you do a bit of reading. For starters, try The Federalist Papers, The Anti-Federalist Papers, the writings of John Locke.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: What I love about America... [Re: Evolving]
    #1530929 - 05/08/03 03:34 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

something tells me he won't be reading any of those writings any time soon.

he'll just go on believing bullshit about america like that it was founded on oppression and its beer has a 3.5% alcohol content.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

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Re: What I love about America... [Re: ]
    #1530935 - 05/08/03 03:35 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

allright, lets get busy.

america has the highest prison population per capita in the first world, do beleive this has no connection between its long history of slavery and racism? seeing that african americans are severely over-represented in the prison population?

you guys can call me a fool and state archaic texts all you want, but by ignoring my argument you just make yourself look opinionated, this is a discussion board, not a "prove your patriotism" board. so lets discuss.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


Edited by atomikfunksoldier (05/08/03 03:37 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1530958 - 05/08/03 03:41 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

for the most part, the proportion of blacks in US prisons is proportional to the crimes they commit. to the extent that this is not true, it is NOT in accordance with the ideals america was founded on, but in violation of them.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1530978 - 05/08/03 03:45 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

Archaic or not, the writings to which Evolving refered to are probably some of the most influential works to affect the founding of the US. You chosing to ignore anticedants on which America was founded, and instead only focusing on the negative aspects makes you only look more opinionated, and concequently wrong.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

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Re: What I love about America... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1531010 - 05/08/03 03:54 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

"for the most part, the proportion of blacks in US prisons is proportional to the crimes they commit"

hahahaha. okay, lets totally disregard social conditions and conflicts and view america from an idealist perspective.....that will really help us expand our understanding of america.

I Fart Blue: im not ignoring these texts, but I do question the validity of their influence on american society and social evolution. I think social conditions such as slavery and opression have more of a social impact that texts that 1% of the population has read.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

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Re: What I love about America... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1531019 - 05/08/03 03:56 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

"for the most part, the proportion of blacks in US prisons is proportional to the crimes they commit"

hahahaha. okay, lets totally disregard social conditions and conflicts and view america from an idealist perspective.....that will really help us expand our understanding of america.

I Fart Blue: im not ignoring these texts, but I do question the validity of their influence on american society and social evolution. I think social conditions such as slavery and opression have more of a social impact that texts that 1% of the population has read.

this is what is happening: you guys are arguing that these texts and documents and bills have the most influence on american society, whil I am arguing that american social conditions have had the most influence on american society. am i right or wrong? if i am wrong please elaborate.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531024 - 05/08/03 03:57 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

How many places in America have you lived?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531031 - 05/08/03 03:58 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

One could certainly question the validity of an institution to which no person alive in America has been a part of.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Evolving]
    #1531032 - 05/08/03 03:58 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

i havent lived in any, but thats irrelevent when discussing the origins america's current state.


a state that i do not contend as a negative one, but I am just critical of easy answers.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


Edited by atomikfunksoldier (05/08/03 03:59 PM)


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InvisibleEdame
gone

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Posts: 1,270
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1531033 - 05/08/03 03:58 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

I'm done with this thread and all things politcal on these boards. You all need to attend some school of higher learning, put down the remote, turn off MTV and go see what the world is like. I'm sure none of oyu have travelled to any other nations and immersed yourself in their cultures long enough to realize that America, the America that I alluded to, is without a doubt the best thing out there now. Goodbye.



lol, now I've heard everything.

*Listens for the pots calling black kettles home to eat stone soup in glass houses...*


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Anonymous

Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531037 - 05/08/03 03:59 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

hahahaha. okay, lets totally disregard social conditions and conflicts and view america from an idealist perspective.....that will really help us expand our understanding of america.

please elaborate. i'm not sure what you're getting at.

this is what is happening: you guys are arguing that these texts and documents and bills have the most influence on american society, whil I am arguing that american social conditions have had the most influence on american society. am i right or wrong? if i am wrong please elaborate.

i am arguing no such thing. i am disputing your statement that america was founded on the ideals of slavery and oppression.

i would agree with you that the ideals america was founded on and what actually goes on here are often two conflicting things.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Edame]
    #1531046 - 05/08/03 04:02 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

"One could certainly question the validity of an institution to which no person alive in America has been a part of"



--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


Edited by atomikfunksoldier (05/08/03 04:03 PM)


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Edame]
    #1531049 - 05/08/03 04:03 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

"One could certainly question the validity of an institution to which no person alive in America has been a part of"

please eloborate, i dont understand


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531052 - 05/08/03 04:04 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

I was refering to Slavery, not America.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1531056 - 05/08/03 04:05 PM (18 years, 7 days ago)

hmmmm, thats not really my point........

i was trying to say that, i think america's past social conditions are more influential on its current social conditions than documents created by the elite.


--------------------
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InvisibleEdame
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1531069 - 05/08/03 04:08 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Sorry to butt into the discussion, but do they still have "chain-gangs" in the US, and if so is that not slavery in a sense?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531070 - 05/08/03 04:08 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

i havent lived in any, but thats irrelevent when discussing the origins america's current state.


a state that i do not contend as a negative one, but I am just critical of easy answers.



What qualifies you to comment on social conditions in America if you don't know what you are talking about?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531072 - 05/08/03 04:09 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

i was trying to say that, i think america's past social conditions are more influential on its current social conditions than documents created by the elite.

to the extent that this is true, it's a shame.

you really should read the "documents created by the elite" we're talking about.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Evolving]
    #1531073 - 05/08/03 04:09 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

hahaha. okay man, im not going to answer that because its too ridiculous, im sure you're more intelligent than that.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531077 - 05/08/03 04:11 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Yes, I am. I've lived 42 years in the states. The ignorant ramblings of someone who gets all his information 2nd, through 10th hand via leftists sources is hardly qualified to give an informed opinion.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Evolving]
    #1531086 - 05/08/03 04:14 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

What qualifies you to comment on social conditions in America if you don't know what you are talking about?




By that same logic, what qualified any of us here on the forums to comment on conditions in Iraq?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Evolving]
    #1531088 - 05/08/03 04:15 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

what sources am I stating?

here is my argument, once again.

america's past social conditions have had more of an influence on its current social condition than a few documents which contend that america is an amazingly free country.

I fail to see the "leftist sources" you refer to.

I suggest you attack my argument rather than me, because by doing so, you lose all credibility.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


Edited by atomikfunksoldier (05/08/03 04:16 PM)


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Edame]
    #1531093 - 05/08/03 04:16 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Sorry to butt into the discussion, but do they still have "chain-gangs" in the US, and if so is that not slavery in a sense?



Some states do, yes. As far as I know they are perfectly constitutional.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


Edited by I_Fart_Blue (05/08/03 04:17 PM)


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1531099 - 05/08/03 04:18 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

ahhh, the american constitution, the blinding light of freedom.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1531109 - 05/08/03 04:23 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

It's constitutional to force people to work? I thought it would be down to individual states to pass laws like that, although I can't claim to fully understand exactly how the US system works.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (05/08/03 04:24 PM)


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531111 - 05/08/03 04:24 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Well it obvious that you are fairly ignorant, and you know not really of what you speak. How do you feel that you can negatively comment on documents or writings which have no knowledge of? It would be foolish to admit that slavery had no impact on American society, however is even more foolish to claim that the notions on which this country were founded are diminished by a dark spot in this nation's history. There are numerous countries which have instituted the practice of slavery; that were involved in the slave trade in the 17th and 18th centuries. However, it is upon the ideas of freedom which slavery was abolished, that all men are created equal.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1531125 - 05/08/03 04:29 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

ahh ignorance, yes its bliss.

you really get emotional when american ideals are put into question dont you?

thats a good thing, they are great ideals, my argument is that, even though these ideals are on paper, existing social conditions prevailed over these ideals, and they have carried on into the 21st century. my example of this was a comparison of slavery with the current black prison population.

sure....."all men are created equal", but in america...are they treated equal,


no.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Edame]
    #1531138 - 05/08/03 04:32 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

It's constitutional to force people to work?



It certainly seems to be the trend here lately. The constitution is only as fair and true as the court that interprets it.

Quote:

I thought it would be down to individual states to pass laws like that



It is a state institution, if thats what you're asking. Some states have chain gangs, some do not.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531154 - 05/08/03 04:40 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

what sources am I stating?

here is my argument, once again.

america's past social conditions have had more of an influence on its current social condition than a few documents which contend that america is an amazingly free country.



What are your sources for assessment of America's current social conditions? Do you live here? No. Have you ever lived here? No. Have you read the documents and are you well versed in the philosophies underlying the documents which served as the basis for the creation of the American government? No. How can you make a well informed opinion if you are not informed?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531159 - 05/08/03 04:41 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Emotional? Not terribly, though I certainly feel that the US is probably the best country in which to live, as do many across the world. The ideals on which this country were founded are extremly relavent to this day. To attempt to compare the black prison populous to that of the institution of slavery is ludicrous at best.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Anonymous

Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531232 - 05/08/03 04:59 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

"thats a good thing, they are great ideals, my argument is that, even though these ideals are on paper, existing social conditions prevailed over these ideals, and they have carried on into the 21st century. my example of this was a comparison of slavery with the current black prison population."

perhaps you should retract your statement that 'america was founded on slavery and oppression' then.

we're all aware that the ideals america was founded on have often taken a back seat to racists, puritans, fundamentalists, bigots, socialists, and others. it's too bad.

you really should read up a little on the ideals america was founded on.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531369 - 05/08/03 05:35 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

atomikfunksoldier writes:

sure, it was founded on the bill of rights and the constitution, but it was also founded on slavery and opression.

Incorrect. It was founded on neither.

As an Englishman, you are of course aware that England didn't abolish slavery until 1833-34. They beat America by three decades, so England led the way on that issue, for sure.

do you think america would be the richest country in the world if it wasnt for all that slavery? free labour for hundreds of years?

The agrarian South had a single cash crop - cotton, which was its sole source of what little wealth was produced there. Oh, and some tobacco, too. Note that tobacco sales in the late eighteenth and nineteenth century were hardly earth-shattering. The goods produced by the industrial North (where there was no slavery to speak of) was the source of America's wealth, not cotton and tobacco sales.

if you want to be proud of what america was "founded" on, then you should accept that america was founded on oppression...

You can't possibly be serious. Do some reading, bloke.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: ]
    #1531378 - 05/08/03 05:36 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

perhaps you should retract your statement that 'america was founded on slavery and oppression' then.

What other terms doyou have for black slavery and the oppression of the native american population? Without oppressing the native americans what would america be today? How is this point even arguable? Unless you believe native americans were not oppressed?

you really should read up a little on the ideals america was founded on

Well we all have ideals - Shrub talks about freedom for the downtrodden till he's blue in the face. Unfortunately the ideals and reality are often quite different.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Re: What I love about America... [Re: ]
    #1531390 - 05/08/03 05:38 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

mushmaster writes:

we're all aware that the ideals america was founded on have often taken a back seat to racists, puritans, fundamentalists, bigots, socialists, and others.

This is what is so wrong with democracy, ya see. Politicians pander to the racists, puritans, fundamentalists, bigots, socialists, and others, because they represent votes. To a professional politician, votes are more important than the Constitution.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1531398 - 05/08/03 05:40 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Dear God, I actually agree with I_F_B. Perish the thought :-)

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1531408 - 05/08/03 05:43 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

perhaps you should retract your statement that 'america was founded on slavery and oppression' then.

What other terms doyou have for black slavery and the oppression of the native american population? Without oppressing the native americans what would america be today? How is this point even arguable? Unless you believe native americans were not oppressed?




How is this point even arguable? Well, if you have a modicum of understanding of the English language and more than a third grade ability of reading comprehension, you would notice the word, 'founded.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Phred]
    #1531409 - 05/08/03 05:43 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)





This is what is so wrong with democracy, ya see. Politicians pander to the racists, puritans, fundamentalists, bigots, socialists, and others, because they represent votes. To a professional politician, votes are more important than the Constitution.




If the majority of the people were racist, puritan, fundamentalits, bigots or soclists, then that would be democracy in action. Just because oyu might not agree with the majority doens't make them any less the majority.

jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Edame]
    #1531418 - 05/08/03 05:46 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

note to whiny-liberals - America had more white slaves brought over from Europe than we bought from other Africans in Africa. Maybe you should learn your history instead of having it spoon fed to you by Carson Daley and the Homie G Posse (thats just made up :smile:  America wasn't "built on slavery" anymore than they were build on any other idea they had at the time that is now outdated.  Thats like saying america was built on puritanism :smile:

jR


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1531451 - 05/08/03 05:54 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

JohnnyRespect writes:

If the majority of the people were racist, puritan, fundamentalits, bigots or soclists, then that would be democracy in action.

Which is exactly why the Founding Fathers were so careful to construct a country which was not a Democracy -- the US is a constitutionally limited Republic. The President and the members of congress are elected through a democratic process, but the US is most assuredly NOT a Democracy. Too bad more people (especially politicians) are incapable of making the distinction.

Just because oyu might not agree with the majority doens't make them any less the majority.

The majority saying something is right does not necessarily make it so.

pinky


--------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Evolving]
    #1531471 - 05/08/03 06:01 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

more than a third grade ability of reading comprehension



You flatter him WAY too much!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Evolving]
    #1531472 - 05/08/03 06:01 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Well, if you have a modicum of understanding of the English language and more than a third grade ability of reading comprehension,

Is it possible for you to make a point without this childish flaming bullshit?

you would notice the word, 'founded.'

I noticed it. Now could you display the faintest degree of mental competence and make a point?







--------------------
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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1531495 - 05/08/03 06:08 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

you would notice the word, 'founded.'

I noticed it. Now could you display the faintest degree of mental competence and make a point?



No surprise that you are unable to get the point. The point is that the U.S. was not founded on slavery and oppression.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (05/08/03 06:09 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: What I love about America... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1531500 - 05/08/03 06:09 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

the point is that america was not founded on the ideals of slavery and oppression of the natives.

is it possible that perhaps certain actions taken by the united states at different points in its history may contradict the values it was founded on?

christianity was founded on love and peace, no?


Edited by mushmaster (05/08/03 06:23 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Evolving]
    #1531507 - 05/08/03 06:13 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

No surprise that you are unable to get the point.

Seeing as you have no point it's hardly surprising.

The point is that the U.S. was not founded on slavery and oppression.

Could you define what you understand by the term "founded"?


--------------------
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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: ]
    #1531549 - 05/08/03 06:25 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

is it possible that perhaps the actions taken by the united states at different points in its history may contradict the values it was founded on?

Is it possible the values you found something on are a little different to the values you actually put into practise? Which has more meaning - the values someone wrote on a peice of paper or the values practised in reality?


--------------------
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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1531607 - 05/08/03 06:45 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Could you define what you understand by the term "founded"?



From yourdictionary.com,
found
tr.v. found?ed, found?ing, founds
1. To establish or set up, especially with provision for continuing existence: The college was founded in 1872.
2. To establish the foundation or basis of; base: found a theory on firm evidence.

Follow these links to read the founding documents of the U.S.,

The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies

The Articles of Confederation


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1531791 - 05/08/03 07:49 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Read the book Animal Farm and 1984, both by George Orwell, what a brilliant man.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: barfightlard]
    #1531854 - 05/08/03 08:13 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

johnny respect: note to whiny-liberals - America had more white slaves brought over from Europe than we bought from other Africans in Africa

i'm really interested in your sources behind this statement.


once again we revert to semantics.....now we are arguing over the meaning of "founded", i guess this is my fault, because I wasnt reffering to the literal meaning of founded, I was reffering to the culture that america was born from. and....if we are talking about the literal "founding" than we are reffering to the constitution, correct?

and did the original constitution not declare that a black man was 3/5ths a white man?

what I find to be the most amusing point about some of your arguments is that you believe that americans know more about america's history than non-americans. For me, from an external non-american perspective, this is total bullshit. Because Americans are brainwashed by patriotism and misinformation, not all americans....but many. Many american's actually beleive that america is the capital of the "free world", and this is simply incorrect. America is without a doubt, the most oppresive country in the "free world".

get over it, the whole world can see it but you. The ideals of the american dream are not a reality.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


Edited by atomikfunksoldier (05/08/03 08:33 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1532063 - 05/08/03 09:10 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

and did the original constitution not declare that a black man was 3/5ths a white man?

you obviously have no idea what the 3/5 compromise was.

what I find to be the most amusing point about some of your arguments is that you believe that americans know more about america's history than non-americans.

why does that amuse you?

For me, from an external non-american perspective, this is total bullshit. Because Americans are brainwashed by patriotism and misinformation, not all americans....but many. Many american's actually beleive that america is the capital of the "free world", and this is simply incorrect. America is without a doubt, the most oppresive country in the "free world".

i don't think ANYONE in this thread has made the claim that america currently operates itself by the principles it was founded under.

i don't think ANYONE (except maybe JR) has tried to make the case that 'america is the shining beacon of democracy and freedom amidst a black sea of oppression and despair'... blah blah blah...

we're not talking about what democracy has unfortunately allowed the people and politicians of america to slowly do to the principles it was founded under.

we're talking about the principles THEMSELVES, which you clearly have no idea about.

here, i'll try to make it simple:

anyone with an understanding of the principles that america was founded under and a clear perspective of what has actually happened in the past 200 some years knows that these two things are quite different.

do you know ANYTHING about the political ideologies that prompted the colonies to break away from england and form the sort of government they were trying to form?


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 6,486
Re: What I love about America... [Re: ]
    #1532083 - 05/08/03 09:16 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

"anyone with an understanding of the principles that america was founded under and a clear perspective of what has actually happened in the past 200 some years knows that these two things are quite different."


So you talk the talk but don't walk the walk huh?


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Anonymous

Re: What I love about America... [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1532088 - 05/08/03 09:18 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

So you talk the talk but don't walk the walk huh?

nope. don't blame me, i vote libertarian.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
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Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: ]
    #1532172 - 05/08/03 09:48 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

all right, the problem here is that we are have different arguments.

my argument is that social conditions prevailed over these principles, which you support, i wasnt debating the principles themselves,

and if I have no idea about the 3/5 compromise was, then enlighten me, because as i understand, it was made so that black votes were worth less than white votes, am i wrong?

if i am right, then it illustrates that the principles themselves are faulty to begin with, and consequently, those who wrote it did not want a free america, but a controlled america.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Anonymous

Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1532208 - 05/08/03 10:02 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

in the house of representatives, states are given a certain number of seats based on the size of their population.

some of the southern states wanted to count slaves as a part of their population so as to have more representation in the house.

some of the northern states rejected this idea.

it wasn't about voting or representation for slaves. it was more about representation for the rich white men that owned them.

about slavery, the southern states would not have joined the union if slavery was not permitted. there were men vehemently opposed to the establishment of slavery, who tried to incorporate emancipation into the constitution, but they were blocked by the southerners. it was a compromise that had to be made.


Edited by mushmaster (05/08/03 10:03 PM)


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: zeta]
    #1532221 - 05/08/03 10:06 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

 




A picture IS worth a thousand words!!!  lol, shit im falling off my chair... :grin:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1532228 - 05/08/03 10:12 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

OK, are you all mentall retarded? 




:smirk:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 3,495
Loc: SItting on the Group W Be...
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1532765 - 05/09/03 01:12 AM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

America had more white slaves brought over from Europe than we bought from other Africans in Africa.




While I am fully aware of the white slavery that was perpetuated in this country (primarily the Scots-Irish I do believe), I have never seen any shred of evidence which supports your claim. Do you have any numbers, facts, links, ie: proof?


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: What I love about America... [Re: Evolving]
    #1532904 - 05/09/03 01:42 AM (18 years, 6 days ago)

1. To establish or set up, especially with provision for continuing existence

And your point is?

The principles someone writes on a peice of paper are the principles the country must follow?

One of the first lines says:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Do you believe these principles have any basis in reality? If so you must believe the indians were politely asked to leave their land and quietly left. I can assure you this isn't the case. Read a history book.

Don't confuse reality with fantasy.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1533469 - 05/09/03 04:21 AM (18 years, 6 days ago)

I thought you were done here


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: What I love about America... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1544701 - 05/13/03 11:43 AM (18 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

And your point is?

The principles someone writes on a peice of paper are the principles the country must follow? ...



You REALLY have trouble understanding a point don't you? The U.S. was NOT founded on slavery and oppression. That's it, what happened AFTER that is not what it was founded on. Get it?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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