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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: Evolving]
    #1531088 - 05/08/03 04:15 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

what sources am I stating?

here is my argument, once again.

america's past social conditions have had more of an influence on its current social condition than a few documents which contend that america is an amazingly free country.

I fail to see the "leftist sources" you refer to.

I suggest you attack my argument rather than me, because by doing so, you lose all credibility.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


Edited by atomikfunksoldier (05/08/03 04:16 PM)


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/02
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Edame]
    #1531093 - 05/08/03 04:16 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Sorry to butt into the discussion, but do they still have "chain-gangs" in the US, and if so is that not slavery in a sense?



Some states do, yes. As far as I know they are perfectly constitutional.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


Edited by I_Fart_Blue (05/08/03 04:17 PM)


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1531099 - 05/08/03 04:18 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

ahhh, the american constitution, the blinding light of freedom.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: What I love about America... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1531109 - 05/08/03 04:23 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

It's constitutional to force people to work? I thought it would be down to individual states to pass laws like that, although I can't claim to fully understand exactly how the US system works.


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (05/08/03 04:24 PM)


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/02
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531111 - 05/08/03 04:24 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Well it obvious that you are fairly ignorant, and you know not really of what you speak. How do you feel that you can negatively comment on documents or writings which have no knowledge of? It would be foolish to admit that slavery had no impact on American society, however is even more foolish to claim that the notions on which this country were founded are diminished by a dark spot in this nation's history. There are numerous countries which have instituted the practice of slavery; that were involved in the slave trade in the 17th and 18th centuries. However, it is upon the ideas of freedom which slavery was abolished, that all men are created equal.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1531125 - 05/08/03 04:29 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

ahh ignorance, yes its bliss.

you really get emotional when american ideals are put into question dont you?

thats a good thing, they are great ideals, my argument is that, even though these ideals are on paper, existing social conditions prevailed over these ideals, and they have carried on into the 21st century. my example of this was a comparison of slavery with the current black prison population.

sure....."all men are created equal", but in america...are they treated equal,


no.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Registered: 06/25/02
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: Edame]
    #1531138 - 05/08/03 04:32 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

It's constitutional to force people to work?



It certainly seems to be the trend here lately. The constitution is only as fair and true as the court that interprets it.

Quote:

I thought it would be down to individual states to pass laws like that



It is a state institution, if thats what you're asking. Some states have chain gangs, some do not.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531154 - 05/08/03 04:40 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

what sources am I stating?

here is my argument, once again.

america's past social conditions have had more of an influence on its current social condition than a few documents which contend that america is an amazingly free country.



What are your sources for assessment of America's current social conditions? Do you live here? No. Have you ever lived here? No. Have you read the documents and are you well versed in the philosophies underlying the documents which served as the basis for the creation of the American government? No. How can you make a well informed opinion if you are not informed?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
Stranger

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Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531159 - 05/08/03 04:41 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Emotional? Not terribly, though I certainly feel that the US is probably the best country in which to live, as do many across the world. The ideals on which this country were founded are extremly relavent to this day. To attempt to compare the black prison populous to that of the institution of slavery is ludicrous at best.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Anonymous

Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531232 - 05/08/03 04:59 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

"thats a good thing, they are great ideals, my argument is that, even though these ideals are on paper, existing social conditions prevailed over these ideals, and they have carried on into the 21st century. my example of this was a comparison of slavery with the current black prison population."

perhaps you should retract your statement that 'america was founded on slavery and oppression' then.

we're all aware that the ideals america was founded on have often taken a back seat to racists, puritans, fundamentalists, bigots, socialists, and others. it's too bad.

you really should read up a little on the ideals america was founded on.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1531369 - 05/08/03 05:35 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

atomikfunksoldier writes:

sure, it was founded on the bill of rights and the constitution, but it was also founded on slavery and opression.

Incorrect. It was founded on neither.

As an Englishman, you are of course aware that England didn't abolish slavery until 1833-34. They beat America by three decades, so England led the way on that issue, for sure.

do you think america would be the richest country in the world if it wasnt for all that slavery? free labour for hundreds of years?

The agrarian South had a single cash crop - cotton, which was its sole source of what little wealth was produced there. Oh, and some tobacco, too. Note that tobacco sales in the late eighteenth and nineteenth century were hardly earth-shattering. The goods produced by the industrial North (where there was no slavery to speak of) was the source of America's wealth, not cotton and tobacco sales.

if you want to be proud of what america was "founded" on, then you should accept that america was founded on oppression...

You can't possibly be serious. Do some reading, bloke.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: What I love about America... [Re: ]
    #1531378 - 05/08/03 05:36 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

perhaps you should retract your statement that 'america was founded on slavery and oppression' then.

What other terms doyou have for black slavery and the oppression of the native american population? Without oppressing the native americans what would america be today? How is this point even arguable? Unless you believe native americans were not oppressed?

you really should read up a little on the ideals america was founded on

Well we all have ideals - Shrub talks about freedom for the downtrodden till he's blue in the face. Unfortunately the ideals and reality are often quite different.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: What I love about America... [Re: ]
    #1531390 - 05/08/03 05:38 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

mushmaster writes:

we're all aware that the ideals america was founded on have often taken a back seat to racists, puritans, fundamentalists, bigots, socialists, and others.

This is what is so wrong with democracy, ya see. Politicians pander to the racists, puritans, fundamentalists, bigots, socialists, and others, because they represent votes. To a professional politician, votes are more important than the Constitution.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1531398 - 05/08/03 05:40 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Dear God, I actually agree with I_F_B. Perish the thought :-)

Jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: What I love about America... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1531408 - 05/08/03 05:43 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

perhaps you should retract your statement that 'america was founded on slavery and oppression' then.

What other terms doyou have for black slavery and the oppression of the native american population? Without oppressing the native americans what would america be today? How is this point even arguable? Unless you believe native americans were not oppressed?




How is this point even arguable? Well, if you have a modicum of understanding of the English language and more than a third grade ability of reading comprehension, you would notice the word, 'founded.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: Phred]
    #1531409 - 05/08/03 05:43 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)





This is what is so wrong with democracy, ya see. Politicians pander to the racists, puritans, fundamentalists, bigots, socialists, and others, because they represent votes. To a professional politician, votes are more important than the Constitution.




If the majority of the people were racist, puritan, fundamentalits, bigots or soclists, then that would be democracy in action. Just because oyu might not agree with the majority doens't make them any less the majority.

jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
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Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: Edame]
    #1531418 - 05/08/03 05:46 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

note to whiny-liberals - America had more white slaves brought over from Europe than we bought from other Africans in Africa. Maybe you should learn your history instead of having it spoon fed to you by Carson Daley and the Homie G Posse (thats just made up :smile:  America wasn't "built on slavery" anymore than they were build on any other idea they had at the time that is now outdated.  Thats like saying america was built on puritanism :smile:

jR


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
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Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: What I love about America... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1531451 - 05/08/03 05:54 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

JohnnyRespect writes:

If the majority of the people were racist, puritan, fundamentalits, bigots or soclists, then that would be democracy in action.

Which is exactly why the Founding Fathers were so careful to construct a country which was not a Democracy -- the US is a constitutionally limited Republic. The President and the members of congress are elected through a democratic process, but the US is most assuredly NOT a Democracy. Too bad more people (especially politicians) are incapable of making the distinction.

Just because oyu might not agree with the majority doens't make them any less the majority.

The majority saying something is right does not necessarily make it so.

pinky


--------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: What I love about America... [Re: Evolving]
    #1531471 - 05/08/03 06:01 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

more than a third grade ability of reading comprehension



You flatter him WAY too much!


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: What I love about America... [Re: Evolving]
    #1531472 - 05/08/03 06:01 PM (18 years, 6 days ago)

Well, if you have a modicum of understanding of the English language and more than a third grade ability of reading comprehension,

Is it possible for you to make a point without this childish flaming bullshit?

you would notice the word, 'founded.'

I noticed it. Now could you display the faintest degree of mental competence and make a point?







--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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