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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 21 years, 15 days
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1530609 - 05/08/03 11:51 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Well then, if culturally acceptable actions mean they are morally correct, and the majority of America thinks that we should have gone to Iraq, there is your moral right-nes right there :-) Don't like it when it works that way tho, hm? :-)


Also, I'd like to know just how many innocent civilians we killed in Iraq. Do you have a real source forr that? If not, how do you know any died? Al-Jazeera isn't the most objectie source of news on the planet, ya know :-)


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1530668 - 05/08/03 12:09 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Well then, if culturally acceptable actions mean they are morally correct

I was arguing the exact opposite if you read the posts. Being born in a country with a certain set of morals doesn't make those morals morally correct.

Also, I'd like to know just how many innocent civilians we killed in Iraq

Not this obscene debasement of life again. Life reduced to some arcade game -"We slaughtered 2000 and Saddam would have slaughtered 2020 so we must be right". Peoples lives arn't that meaningless.

You wanna know my take on civilian casualities - he invasion wasn't worth a single childs finger.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1530696 - 05/08/03 12:19 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Out of interest, what do you think of the fact that April Gillespie told the Iraqi's that the US was not interested in Arab-Arab conflicts only weeks before the invasion of Kuwait?

there are two possibilities:

1. april gillespie is an idiot.
2. at the time, our government wanted him to attack kuwait because it'd be an excuse to go after him. at the time, he'd been trying to build a nuclear weapons program (and getting pretty far along on it), stockpiling chemical weapons, and extorting money from his neighbors. (all of which the US objected to and in response had passed different legislation).

i think he was getting on our nerves, so when he asked, "can i do it?" we said "suuuure saddam.... go ahead... we don't mind". so he did, giving the US broad international support to go after him. he was very stupid for trusting the US on that one. uncle sam can be a slippery dude.

regardless, does permission from the united states give one nation the go-ahead to attack another nation?

Here is a chronology of key events:here.

since you seem to have a few misconceptions (specifically, saddam being on "good terms" with the united states and complying with sanctions), i suggest you read it well.

Also, how do you hold the position that it is always morally wrong to kill innocents but then say an invasion into Iraq was warranted?

killing innocent people is wrong. it's also a basic fact of life when warfare is involved. this is why war should only be initiated for rightous reasons, and only when absolutely necessary, and why in the course of war, every possible precaution should be taken against killing innocents.

i do believe that saddam hussein, for the good of the world, should have been removed. i think it was a rightous cause. i don't think he was cooperating with inspections, and i think that as long as he was in power, he'd be doing everything he could get away with to acquire WMDs.... and the iraqi people would be suffering under his rule.

and i think that all other options had been exhausted. i think that after 12 years of inspections, bombings, sanctions, and still non-compliance, it was the time to take real action against him, and remove him once and for all.

i don't think that the US did as much as it could have to protect iraqi civilians though. i don't think that DU munitions and cluster bombs are consistant with a clean war. i also don't think we needed to bomb baghdad so heavily.

how do you think hussein should have been dealt with?

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Anonymous

Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1530704 - 05/08/03 12:20 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Saddam was utterly bewildered and felt completly betrayed by the americans actions. After being a close ally for many years and telling him they had no interest in arab conflicts they suddenly turned on him.

awwwwww... poor saddam. a single tear rolls down my cheek.  :smirk:

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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1531063 - 05/08/03 02:06 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

  Do you have a real source forr that? If not, how do you know any died?




Great point johnny!  The US used "presision" bombs, so all this talk about civilian casualties, missles into marketplaces and whatnot is nothing more than silly excuses to spread anti war propoganda. :smile:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: ]
    #1531203 - 05/08/03 02:52 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

i suggest you read it well.




You... are an optimist.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 21 years, 15 days
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: ]
    #1531433 - 05/08/03 03:50 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Saddam was utterly bewildered and felt completly betrayed by the americans actions. After being a close ally for many years and telling him they had no interest in arab conflicts they suddenly turned on him.

awwwwww... poor saddam. a single tear rolls down my cheek.  :smirk: 




Oh mine too, that poor Saddam. *sniffles*  we left him all alone just because he was a brutal tyrant and gassed his own people. 



 


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!

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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1531444 - 05/08/03 03:53 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

You have the most diluded sense of humour i've ever had the displeasure to come across. :tongue:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1531488 - 05/08/03 04:06 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Oh mine too, that poor Saddam. *sniffles* we left him all alone just because he was a brutal tyrant and gassed his own people.

No, get it right, you were his best buddy when he was gassing people.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 months, 13 days
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: ]
    #1533711 - 05/09/03 04:28 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

there are two possibilities:

1. april gillespie is an idiot.





Thats possible, but seeing as she had obtained a position of high importance in the US govt. it should be fair to assume that she was not completely incompetent and didnt act alone in giving the Iraqi's the blessing of the US.(LMAO!)

Quote:

2. at the time, our government wanted him to attack kuwait because it'd be an excuse to go after him.




Also possible, the reasoning is probabaly a little more complex but I think that covers the jist of it.
Now you have mentioned how it was within America's rights to attack Saddam due to his failure to fully comply with the terms of surrender. (Dont forget the Iraqi's claimed they had complied as fully as they could and the international community was by no means convinced by Richard Butler's claims to the contrary) but doesnt the fact there is a high possibility that the US engineered an excuse to attack Iraq destroy any shaky notions of righteousness the US may wish to lay claim to?

Quote:

regardless, does permission from the united states give one nation the go-ahead to attack another nation?




It doesnt give them the right but it does mean they can get away with it.

Quote:

since you seem to have a few misconceptions (specifically, saddam being on "good terms" with the united states and complying with sanctions), i suggest you read it well.





Thanks for trying to help me with my misconceptions but maybe you need a little help with reading comprehension... I was clearly saying that Saddam was on good terms with the US prior to the invasion of Kuwait as evidenced by the sizeable loans bestowed on Iraq by the Americans etc. Do you dispute this?

Quote:

killing innocent people is wrong. it's also a basic fact of life when warfare is involved.




Ergo initiating wars is wrong?

Quote:

i do believe that saddam hussein, for the good of the world, should have been removed. i think it was a rightous cause.




As Ive already mentioned above any claims to righteousness are questionable. How exactly does this war benefit the whole world? Has it really made the world a safer place for us all?

Quote:

i don't think he was cooperating with inspections, and i think that as long as he was in power, he'd be doing everything he could get away with to acquire WMDs....




Im sure the Iraqi's werent complying a 100% but does that justify a war? You are positive that war was the only solution arent you?

Quote:

how do you think hussein should have been dealt with?



Sanctions against purely military items shoud have been left in place together with a long term monitoring process. Something which the Iraqi's had already agreed to in principle in 1998. This level of sanction and scrutiny would have ensured Iraq were unable to create WMD. Then we could have addressed the humanitarian issues seperately.




--------------------
Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 months, 13 days
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1533714 - 05/09/03 04:29 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You... are an optimist.




Thanks ever so much for another excellent contribuiton Luvvie!

PEACE


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1533739 - 05/09/03 04:37 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quote:

You... are an optimist.




Thanks ever so much for another excellent contribuiton Luvvie!

PEACE



Your welcome.

Thanks for yours.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Anonymous

Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1533966 - 05/09/03 07:51 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

doesnt the fact there is a high possibility that the US engineered an excuse to attack Iraq destroy any shaky notions of righteousness the US may wish to lay claim to?

the US did not encourage saddam hussein to attack kuwait. they did not support him. they just said, "we don't care".

saddam hussein just wanted reassurance that he'd be able to get away with attacking his neighbor, that he'd be able to overrun and annex kuwait without the US getting involved.

what he basically wanted to know was that if he went ahead and did something wrong, would he get in trouble for it? we told him no, so he went ahead and did it. what kind of guy is that?

you cannot say that the gulf war was the 'fault' of the united states.

(Dont forget the Iraqi's claimed they had complied as fully as they could and the international community was by no means convinced by Richard Butler's claims to the contrary)

if this is true, why was the 'international community' calling for sanctions, resolutions, and inspections of iraq?

I was clearly saying that Saddam was on good terms with the US prior to the invasion of Kuwait as evidenced by the sizeable loans bestowed on Iraq by the Americans etc.

like the billion dollars of aid granted to iraq every year that was cut (before the attack) because of iraq's violations of human rights and weapons treaties?

Ergo initiating wars is wrong?

nope, i think by reading the rest of my post, you'd see that i wasn't saying that that was necessarily so.

As Ive already mentioned above any claims to righteousness are questionable.

tell me what's un-'rightous' about spearheading an international coalition to evict an aggressor nation from the small country they have just attacked for no good reason.

How exactly does this war benefit the whole world? Has it really made the world a safer place for us all?

saddam hussein was a dictator with ambitions of nuclear power, chemical arsenals, and domination of the middle east. that's all that needs to be said about that. YES.

Im sure the Iraqi's werent complying a 100% but does that justify a war? You are positive that war was the only solution arent you?

iraq wasn't asked to comply. nor were they told that 95% compliance would be 'ok'.

Sanctions against purely military items shoud have been left in place together with a long term monitoring process. Something which the Iraqi's had already agreed to in principle in 1998. This level of sanction and scrutiny would have ensured Iraq were unable to create WMD. Then we could have addressed the humanitarian issues seperately.

maybe such a scenario would have been acceptable if hussein had been a little more compliant.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 months, 13 days
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: ]
    #1534160 - 05/09/03 09:24 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

what he basically wanted to know was that if he went ahead and did something wrong, would he get in trouble for it? we told him no, so he went ahead and did it. what kind of guy is that?




What kind of people let a war start which they could have stopped just to further their own ends?

Quote:

saddam hussein was a dictator with ambitions of nuclear power, chemical arsenals, and domination of the middle east. that's all that needs to be said about that. YES.





Speculation and propaganda.

Quote:

iraq wasn't asked to comply. nor were they told that 95% compliance would be 'ok'.




American tough talk! turns my stomach to be honest.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Anonymous

Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #1534180 - 05/09/03 09:33 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

What kind of people let a war start which they could have stopped just to further their own ends?

the kind whos "own ends" mean needing an excuse to not sit idly while a dictator arms up with nuclear and chemical weapons and threatens to destabilize much of the world's energy supply.

Speculation and propaganda.

more like 'observable fact'.

American tough talk! turns my stomach to be honest.

was there a point to this comment?

Edited by mushmaster (05/09/03 09:40 AM)

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: ]
    #1534248 - 05/09/03 10:11 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

the US did not encourage saddam hussein to attack kuwait. they did not support him. they just said, "we don't care".

So why did they then turn round and launch a massive attack? If they'd said "We'll get involved" do you think Saddam would have invaded Kuwait? Seriously?

what he basically wanted to know was that if he went ahead and did something wrong, would he get in trouble for it?

Like when he invaded Iran? And the US provided him with arms, chemical weapons military surveillance and loans? It's a little late talking about "right and wrong" when you're backing the guy dropping chemical weapons.

if this is true, why was the 'international community' calling for sanctions, resolutions, and inspections of iraq?

If the US hadn't been so gung-ho for sanctions it's extremely unlikely anyone else would have bothered. Israel has been blatantly violating UN resolutions for 30 years. No sanctions there.

iraq wasn't asked to comply

Actually this is true. But not in the sense you appear to understand it. As I recently posted:

The key to the Government's legal view is that Iraq's actions have somehow negated the basis of the 1991 ceasefire as expressed in Resolution 687. It has been argued the ceasefire declared by Resolution 687 was conditional on Iraq fulfilling the conditions required of it. However, the resolution makes clear the ceasefire will come into effect if Iraq simply accepts the terms of the resolution.

[url=http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/18/1047749768285.html]


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: Xlea321]
    #1534656 - 05/09/03 12:46 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

If they'd said "We'll get involved" do you think Saddam would have invaded Kuwait? Seriously?

well... it's a possibility. i mean... after the attack, the US (and the rest of the world) pressured hussein for months to get out of kuwait, but he didn't. i think at that point, it should have become clear to him that if he didn't get out of kuwait, there'd be a coalition coming after him, and the US would probably be a part of it. but for whatever reason, he didn't care at that point.

maybe if before he attacked he knew that the US was going to get involved, he wouldn't have attacked. it's not a sure thing though. i think he wouldn't have.

Like when he invaded Iran? And the US provided him with arms, chemical weapons military surveillance and loans? It's a little late talking about "right and wrong" when you're backing the guy dropping chemical weapons.

irrelevant to the discussion. in addition, both sides used chemical weapons during that war. i've tried to explain to you before the motives of the US for covertly supplying hussein with arms during that war. i can do it again if you'd like.

If the US hadn't been so gung-ho for sanctions it's extremely unlikely anyone else would have bothered.

france, russia, and china (sound familiar?) objected to the sanctions at certain points. other than that, sanctions against iraq had much international support.

Israel has been blatantly violating UN resolutions for 30 years. No sanctions there.

there should be. are you saying that because the UN is a little inconsistant with its enforcement of resolutions that it should just drop enforcement altogether?

The key to the Government's legal view is that Iraq's actions have somehow negated the basis of the 1991 ceasefire as expressed in Resolution 687. It has been argued the ceasefire declared by Resolution 687 was conditional on Iraq fulfilling the conditions required of it. However, the resolution makes clear the ceasefire will come into effect if Iraq simply accepts the terms of the resolution.

this really says nothing. of course the ceasefire "will come into effect if iraq simply accepts the terms of the resolution". the point is that they didn't. am i missing something?

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: ]
    #1535088 - 05/09/03 03:25 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

irrelevant to the discussion

Of course it's not. You said he wanted to know what would happen if he did "something wrong". He already knew - he'd "done something wrong" 9 years earlier and had massive US support.

i've tried to explain to you before the motives of the US for covertly supplying hussein with arms during that war.

Do the "motives" really matter?

Hardly "covertly" supplying either.

france, russia, and china (sound familiar?) objected to the sanctions at certain points

The other main players on the security council you mean.

other than that, sanctions against iraq had much international support.

Not really. It hardly pays for Tonga to make the US angry by being outspoken against sanctions.

there should be.

And if my aunt had nuts she'd be my uncle. It's not going to happen.

are you saying that because the UN is a little inconsistant with its enforcement of resolutions that it should just drop enforcement altogether?

A "little inconsistency" i can live with. Blatantly ignoring invasions, WMD and human rights abuses for 30 years isn't what i'd call a "little inconsistency". I'd say it's a bit more serious than that.

the point is that they didn't.

The ceasfire came into place. Therefore Iraq accepted the conditions of 687. Otherwise the ceasefire wouldn't have come into place.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlinetheindianrepublic
Stranger
Registered: 11/20/13
Posts: 19
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #19445872 - 01/20/14 02:36 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
If your the average farmer in Afghanistan...or goat herder, or whatever the fuck it is they do.  Wouldnt YOU rather have the Taliban? I would...

Instead of a country with barely any crime, no drugs, and a stable, if not strong, infrastructure, you now have rampant crime and warlords, the highest drug cultivation rate in years, and no government oversight of any public facilities, roads, or anything.

I dont blame Hamid.  We destroyed the country, with reason, but the least we should do is not desert them months later.  And we wonder why America breeds resentment... 






That's really nice. I can not say anything yet.

But it's good to know that government of anywhere is good.

World News

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 8 years, 20 days
Re: Taliban was a great government... [Re: theindianrepublic]
    #19453743 - 01/21/14 04:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

10 year old thread?  Go away


--------------------

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