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OfflineSatyapriya
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Sigmund Freud quote
    #15248241 - 10/19/11 04:42 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

"A man should not strive to eliminate his complexes but to get into accord with them: they are legitimately what directs his conduct in the world." - Sigmund Freud

What do you guys think about this statement?  Think it's true?  If so, true for everybody, or only those who don't have the time to work on themselves?

In your experience, is it possible to completely overcome or eliminate a specific mental complex, rather than to just understand it and get into accord with it?


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InvisiblezZZz
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Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,479
Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: Satyapriya]
    #15248361 - 10/19/11 05:18 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

i think it is a true statement and i can relate with it. from my experiences i have yet to permanently eliminate my mental complexes, but i am becoming more and more comfortable with them that it sometimes feels like they temporarily fade away. i think trying to eliminate these complexes is like trying to put out fire with fire. i am with sigmund on this one, i would rather let these mental complexes flow through me and out, instead of building a dam and over flooding the mind, just so it could collapse in the end anyway.


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Offlinecrumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: Satyapriya]
    #15248422 - 10/19/11 05:32 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

It's been my experience that some things can be "overcome" while others will persist, and it varies from person to person. Ultimately though, what would a person be without the strange little drives that swing up from the subconscious? If you have a complex about hating wet feet, you'll go to great lengths and feel pleasure when you avoid getting your feet wet, or suffer when you fail. If your complex is that you love wet feet, you'll derive pleasure and suffering from the opposite. Without these deep running elements of our personalities, we'd be kind of drone like, eating whatever, doing the bare minimum needed to avoid suffering, and approaching only the simplest, easiest to achieve pleasures.

Obviously some complexes need to be handled in different ways. If you've got a complex about stabbing kids, the way to get into accord with that one is to stay away from kids, and maybe knives too.


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Invisiblehelix
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Registered: 09/13/10
Posts: 409
Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: crumblebum]
    #15250317 - 10/20/11 12:02 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I mostly agree that when you're comfortable with your complexes they aren't a problem anymore and you can live happily, which ultimately will make this world a better place

but then again, if your complex has a negative social value it should be gradually cut out...

that's ambiguous, but i'm sure this can be quantified somehow...for example, if you absolutely need to stab kids like crumblebum mentioned....and as a person grows, develops their critical capacities, empathy and their consciousness expands, I would even extend this to include really distant negative social effects, such as in the case that a complex is directing somebody to be distrustful of their mate, or a complex is telling somebody to stay working in that 9to5 job supporting an evil corporation that employs sweatshops...that example is pushing it but my point is you gotta first accept your complexes, and only then can you develop beyond them to become a better person

if you don't have time to work on it, then you need to quit your job. it probably sucks anyway if it's sucking that much of your time :shrug:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: Satyapriya]
    #15250883 - 10/20/11 05:04 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shrooomtastic said:
"A man should not strive to eliminate his complexes but to get into accord with them: they are legitimately what directs his conduct in the world." - Sigmund Freud

What do you guys think about this statement?  Think it's true?  If so, true for everybody, or only those who don't have the time to work on themselves?

In your experience, is it possible to completely overcome or eliminate a specific mental complex, rather than to just understand it and get into accord with it?




I don't agree; he makes it sound as if we're predetermined to be in a certain way, and, if we try to change that, we won't be ourselves anymore. Besides, IME, complexes are the result of rigid ways of thinking that impede us from being able to adapt to what really happens around us, and when we can't adapt we end up suffering and feeling frustrated. So why would I want to keep something that doesn't allow me to be happy?
This doesn't mean that I can't accept the fact that I have a complex while trying to change it. No need to feel bad about feeling bad. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #15251017 - 10/20/11 06:51 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

The idea imo is to make the attempt to change without the attachment to it actually happening. Or happening fully. 

A mature individual  knows they may not be able to change, yet makes it their business to change nevertheless.  However they are not disappointed when they fail to change and that is their great advantage over the immature individual.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #15251165 - 10/20/11 08:26 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Shrooomtastic said:
"A man should not strive to eliminate his complexes but to get into accord with them: they are legitimately what directs his conduct in the world." - Sigmund Freud

What do you guys think about this statement?  Think it's true?  If so, true for everybody, or only those who don't have the time to work on themselves?

In your experience, is it possible to completely overcome or eliminate a specific mental complex, rather than to just understand it and get into accord with it?




I don't agree; he makes it sound as if we're predetermined to be in a certain way, and, if we try to change that, we won't be ourselves anymore. Besides, IME, complexes are the result of rigid ways of thinking that impede us from being able to adapt to what really happens around us, and when we can't adapt we end up suffering and feeling frustrated. So why would I want to keep something that doesn't allow me to be happy?
This doesn't mean that I can't accept the fact that I have a complex while trying to change it. No need to feel bad about feeling bad. :shrug:




I think he would argue that it isn't the complex in and of itself that causes unhappiness, but rather, being in discord with the complex; feeling the need to get rid of it, fight it, etc.

Another way I think of the quote is that by "getting into accord" with the complexes, could be thought of as building a rapport with oneself, getting to know yourself and one's own patterns of emoting/thinking/drives/etc better, so that we might flow better with our automatic inclinations and (from my own personal experience) thereby have greater influence in changing them if we wanted. I kind of think of it like when I'm wanting to influence someone else, it's much easier to influence them when I'm in accord with them than when I'm in discord with them.


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: Mufungo]
    #15251186 - 10/20/11 08:35 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

...so that we might flow better with our automatic inclinations...




No one addresses with enough concern the idea or notion of intelligent entity contact/existence or direct thought control and these 'automatic inclinations...':ooo:

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #15251195 - 10/20/11 08:37 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sorry, your syntax is playing games with my meaning machine. Can you rephrase that please?


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: Mufungo]
    #15251294 - 10/20/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mufungo said:
I'm sorry, your syntax is playing games with my meaning machine. Can you rephrase that please?




I was just hinting at the fact that those 'automatic inclinations' rather than some deep psychological 'layer' could be covert manipulation by intelligent astral beings.  And, that not enough attention is given to this line of thinking due to opposing consensus belief.  It is believed mostly that Angels and Demons are not willingly, in real time, manipulating your thoughts and emotions but...  THEY ARE!

The entire psychological perspective badly needs revising.  Some more complete model might include 'entity manipulation' as a more subtle aspect of one's own psyche...:lol:

Maybe I'm just working through a broken worldview or viewing a working broken world.:confused:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #15251307 - 10/20/11 09:13 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Can you give a shred of real evidence for making your claims?  There I've asked for evidence in a debate forum.  Put up or ...

This debate-oriented forum is for the discussion of philosophical ideas that can be backed up with some sort of thoughtful logic and reasoning.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #15251315 - 10/20/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
It is believed mostly that Angels and Demons are not willingly, in real time, manipulating your thoughts and emotions but...  THEY ARE!





It is believed? Many things are believed, but this doesn't mean that they are also true. :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: Mufungo]
    #15251327 - 10/20/11 09:18 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mufungo said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Shrooomtastic said:
"A man should not strive to eliminate his complexes but to get into accord with them: they are legitimately what directs his conduct in the world." - Sigmund Freud

What do you guys think about this statement?  Think it's true?  If so, true for everybody, or only those who don't have the time to work on themselves?

In your experience, is it possible to completely overcome or eliminate a specific mental complex, rather than to just understand it and get into accord with it?




I don't agree; he makes it sound as if we're predetermined to be in a certain way, and, if we try to change that, we won't be ourselves anymore. Besides, IME, complexes are the result of rigid ways of thinking that impede us from being able to adapt to what really happens around us, and when we can't adapt we end up suffering and feeling frustrated. So why would I want to keep something that doesn't allow me to be happy?
This doesn't mean that I can't accept the fact that I have a complex while trying to change it. No need to feel bad about feeling bad. :shrug:




I think he would argue that it isn't the complex in and of itself that causes unhappiness, but rather, being in discord with the complex; feeling the need to get rid of it, fight it, etc.

Another way I think of the quote is that by "getting into accord" with the complexes, could be thought of as building a rapport with oneself, getting to know yourself and one's own patterns of emoting/thinking/drives/etc better, so that we might flow better with our automatic inclinations and (from my own personal experience) thereby have greater influence in changing them if we wanted. I kind of think of it like when I'm wanting to influence someone else, it's much easier to influence them when I'm in accord with them than when I'm in discord with them.




Oh, I completely agree. This is why I was mentioning the whole acceptance of one's complexes thing. You can't change something unless you know what it is.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #15251854 - 10/20/11 12:19 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:

Mufungo said:
I'm sorry, your syntax is playing games with my meaning machine. Can you rephrase that please?




I was just hinting at the fact that those 'automatic inclinations' rather than some deep psychological 'layer' could be covert manipulation by intelligent astral beings.  And, that not enough attention is given to this line of thinking due to opposing consensus belief.  It is believed mostly that Angels and Demons are not willingly, in real time, manipulating your thoughts and emotions but...  THEY ARE!

The entire psychological perspective badly needs revising.  Some more complete model might include 'entity manipulation' as a more subtle aspect of one's own psyche...:lol:

Maybe I'm just working through a broken worldview or viewing a working broken world.:confused:




Automatic inclinations can easily just refer to the patterns of behaviour and the patterns of thought that we engage in without having to think too much about it. Does that require a deep psychological layer to describe or does it require the use of some other entity to describe, I think not, but if we want to prescribe a cause to those automatic behaviours and thoughts, then isn't the parsimonious explanation, that we just learned to think and behave that way and then got so good at doing it that way that we no longer needed to think about it consciously. Kind of like driving a car (cliché I know). You wouldn't suggest that the ability to drive a car without much thought is the result of angles coordinating body movements and shifts in attention, would you? Why would anyone think that?  ...apart from the entertainment value. Hmmmm... I might try that next time I get in my car. But I don't think it'll be a good defense if I get a speeding ticket.

As for a psychological model including "entity manipulation". How might you suggest that we base such a model. Do we just fantasise about entities and whack them in the model, or should we base it on something? How would we choose what entities to include and what not to include? What about when psychologists start disagreeing with each other about the entities, such as who the entities are, what they do, how many of them are involved at any one time, etc... how would we settle any of these disagreements? Do you have suggestions to resolve these questions?



Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Oh, I completely agree. This is why I was mentioning the whole acceptance of one's complexes thing. You can't change something unless you know what it is.




Then I think we must have read the quote quite differently to each other then. Cause I didn't read any rigidity or inflexibility of behaving/thinking into the quote. I read it as, instead of trying to eliminate complexes, accept them and utilise them in conducting oneself in the world, even if that conduct means learning and practicing new ways to behave/think.


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: Mufungo]
    #15251968 - 10/20/11 12:53 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Can you give a shred of real evidence for making your claims?




Nope.

Quote:

It is believed? Many things are believed, but this doesn't mean that they are also true. :lol:




For sure.

Quote:

Automatic inclinations can easily just refer to the patterns of behaviour and the patterns of thought that we engage in without having to think too much about it.




Right.  So say any thought, emotion, behavior...
Quote:


Do you have suggestions to resolve these questions?




THAT IS THE HUMAN CONDITION YOU DESCRIBE GOING ON NOW!!  The first step is admitting to things that we have as a consensus thus far denied.  There is a huge problem with schizophrenia and the reality of mysticism, IMO, IME.

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #15252679 - 10/20/11 03:40 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:

Automatic inclinations can easily just refer to the patterns of behaviour and the patterns of thought that we engage in without having to think too much about it.




Right.  So say any thought, emotion, behavior...






But there are different sort of thoughts. Some we can consciously control, and others that seem automatic. Hence, the inclination to think/behave automatically.

Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:


Do you have suggestions to resolve these questions?




THAT IS THE HUMAN CONDITION YOU DESCRIBE GOING ON NOW!!  The first step is admitting to things that we have as a consensus thus far denied.  There is a huge problem with schizophrenia and the reality of mysticism, IMO, IME.




Well that hasn't answered my questions. At the moment the way things are with psychology, there are methods psychologists can use to gather evidence to support their aspersions, then they can debate amongst themselves to whittle away at any aspersions that are bunkus. Thereby, getting closer and closer to better models and better therapeutic techniques. It's not perfect, but it gets better over time.

Now, the situation I proposed to you with my questions (which you avoided answering) already supposed that psychologists had embraced the entity manipulation psychological revolution. ...so after that step, then what, hows it going to work in actuality, in a practical sense?

We can't just cross our fingers and wish with all our heart that psychology would embrace a different model. It needs to be grounded in the real world. And if you can't propose HOW it exactly will be played out, then it is more likely to continue to be nothing more than a notion of fantasy.


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: Satyapriya]
    #15255562 - 10/21/11 05:10 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with Freud on this one. The people who aren't in good accord with their complexes are the people Freud would treat... and Freud himself.
I believe that most of the time it is actually harmful to drudge things up from the subconscious unless of course it is truly necessary.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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OfflineLinus
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: blingbling]
    #15255568 - 10/21/11 05:12 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I agree unless its directly hurting others. Channel it and use it to your advantage to make money, help or whatever.  If you hide it, it'll just rot in you making you sicker.


--------------------
I've done a lot of drugs in the past, I still do.

Abracadabra

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: Linus]
    #15255596 - 10/21/11 05:26 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

People have complexes for a reason. They shelter us from our own humanity. In many ways we should actually reinforce these complexes to avoid depression, but never lose sight of your humanity in the process... lest we risk the tragic fate of the schizophrenic who is himself a writhing mass of complexities.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: Sigmund Freud quote [Re: Mufungo]
    #15255649 - 10/21/11 05:59 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

But there are different sort of thoughts. Some we can consciously control, and others that seem automatic. Hence, the inclination to think/behave automatically.




Right but the observation of the thoughts where ever they come from remains very important when examining any supposed 'source' of your idea.

Quote:

...so after that step, then what, hows it going to work in actuality, in a practical sense?




Kids going through true awakenings that are labeled psychoses and schizophrenic breaks would be treated as if they had some sort of contact rather than immediately stigmatized, I hope.  This would set up a dialog of acceptance of the phenomenon rather than one of remedying 'symptoms.'  A model of transformation.

Quote:

It needs to be grounded in the real world. And if you can't propose HOW it exactly will be played out, then it is more likely to continue to be nothing more than a notion of fantasy.




And that is the problem.  Until we can monitor the subjective experience I don't see much insight being made into what people are actually experiencing.  And until the possibilities of experience are allowed I don't see anything changing too quickly.

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