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 White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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 Duality 
#15247857 - 10/19/11 03:19 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is there any evidence for duality? Or is the concept of separation completely made up?
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 YOUalchemistYOU
Lord
Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Georgia, USA
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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From a psychological perspective it exists. Babies born instinctually choose the "pleasurable objects." If it makes me feel good, it's good. If it makes me feel bad, it's bad. The conflict between action and consequence creates the conception of the self. It's yo ego, yo.
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What a piece of work is man! How noble in Reason! How infinite in faculties! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an Angel! In apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world! The paragon of animals!
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Interesting. So it only exists in my head, correct?
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YOUalchemistYOU
Lord
Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Georgia, USA
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Haha, to an extent I think. I read a lot of psychology, but I don't have a degree in it...yet.
I mean, it only exists in your head the way everything else does. The ideas of black and white / wrong and right are all in our heads. They're ways we make sense of things...but as I'm typing this I'm realizing more and more I don't even know what you mean by duality. There are so many types. What exactly are you referring to?
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What a piece of work is man! How noble in Reason! How infinite in faculties! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an Angel! In apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world! The paragon of animals!
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Separation in any sense. There's no fine line between black and white. There's a infinite sea of greys in between.
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YOUalchemistYOU
Lord
Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 7
Loc: Georgia, USA
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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I always think of the grey area as the colorful area. That's where your emotions are. I think the more important question is: Do you think duality exists? That's all you need to know.
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What a piece of work is man! How noble in Reason! How infinite in faculties! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an Angel! In apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world! The paragon of animals!
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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I don't believe it exists, but I still act and think as if it exists.
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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This is a big topic in some kinds of Hinduism, a lot of Greek philosophy, and I'm sure it comes up in a lot of places. Shavite Hinduism focuses a lot on the elimination of perceived dualities like hot and cold, suffering and joy, etc.
The typical cosmological variances are monism, dualism, and pluralism, and they refer to how many "substances" or base materials the universe is made out of, with the most basic and widely held being dualism, the belief that there is a physical world and a spiritual world, and that they have limited interaction. One moves into pluralism when you start adding substance to the list, like the supposition of a physical world, a spiritual world, and a mental world, and so on, where monism is the idea that there are no fundamentally differentiated substances and everything, including gods and ghosts and shit, are made from the same fundamental substance as everything else.
Curiously, as much as we think of primitive, indigenous shamany folk as largely dualistic, what with their concerns about spirits and the like, they are often technically monists, as when asked to describe the "spirit world" or other such locations where spiritual beings are said to live, they often point out a geographical feature that they have no means of investigating, such as a mountain, above the clouds, or something similar, and maintain a belief that the beings materially exist there. It's only when a culture starts poking around, talking to other cultures, going places they couldn't before, that the need comes for a second world to store all the shit they didn't find over hill but still have a use for the existence of.
I think dualism/pluralism collapses under its own weight with very little prodding. If there is a material world and a spiritual world, and they interact in any way, then they can be just as easily said to be part of the whole, and thus still made of a single substance. If the spirit world exists and doesn't interact with this one at all, then it's not a part of this world, and its substance doesn't count towards the accounting of this single substance material universe.
I seriously love the shit out of this topic, I could go on all night.
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Wow, good read dude 
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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The "problem" is our brains, I think. They're sorting machines, and they've done us a lot of good in that fashion, but sometimes they go to far and create distinctions where they don't rationally exist.
Early alchemical/elemental systems regarded hot/cold and wet/dry as foundational elements, and something would be either one or the other. Obviously we can now call these things false dichotomies, as both properties exist on a continuum that can be measured more specifically with temperature and humidity.
Then comes the especially tricky part. Once you have begun reconciling/annihilating dualities into a series of continuums, the more psychologically taxing task is to reconcile the series of continuums further into a single "thing". For example, Parmenides and his better known student Zeno believed that the whole of the universe was a spherical object that contained no moving parts or variation in substance, was perfectly weighted, and probably about the size of a fingertip. This, for them, was the only way to reconcile the ways in which common sense reasoning about physics and motion can fall flat.
Zeno is most famous for elucidating his teachers weird ass theories with his Paradoxes, the arrow, the foot race, and so on. The arrow paradox effectively outlined Heisenbergian uncertainty like, 500 years before Jesus thought that raising from the dead was a new thing for deities (no one told him about the egyptian pantheon)
Edit: Like I said, I could go on. There isn't a culture, philosophy, spirituality, or card game not influenced by notions of duality.
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Edited by crumblebum (10/19/11 05:49 PM)
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thefloodbehind
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 898
Loc: Nashville, TN
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Principium indivituationis, homies.
We live in a world of lines.
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Even most of the philosophies that deal with individuation regard it as either a psychological phenomenon or illusion. To regard two objects as individual doesn't automatically make them so in a cosmological or metaphysical sense. Even as individual objects, they can still be regarded as part of a whole. Individual ducks in a group make up a flock, individual bits of shitty burnt out chinese circuit board badly soldered together make an XBOX 360, etc.
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thefloodbehind
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 898
Loc: Nashville, TN
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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 Nice, that 360 part got me
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JilPil
Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 859
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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I watched a video last night that talked about duality.
3:40 and on is the duality part.
Edited by JilPil (10/19/11 06:41 PM)
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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I figure if I'm gonna babble endlessly about shit no one probably cares about, I should throw in the odd joke to make it worth the read.
Shit, I should start writing for Cracked.com
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thefloodbehind
Registered: 07/05/11
Posts: 898
Loc: Nashville, TN
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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A shame no one cares about it, and yeah you're a great writer from what I can tell, you'd be good at dat shiz 
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Quote:
White Beard said:
Is there any evidence for duality? Or is the concept of separation completely made up?
The second one.
Rly tho, I don't see how there could ever be evidence for something immaterial, especially in any sort of causal role. You would have to show how something without mass or energy (both physical properties) interacted with something that is entirely reducible to matter and energy. 
Similarly the subject-object duality is unfounded... The object is defined as having an existence apart from the subject, but all knowledge appears to originate in the subject (through the sense organs, and the brain's particular way of representation) and end in the subject (you cannot see beyond yourself, or as Nietzsche puts it, "we can't see round our own corner.") So nothing apart from the subject could ever be proven to exist.
Edited by NetDiver (10/20/11 01:09 AM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
White Beard said:
Is there any evidence for duality? Or is the concept of separation completely made up?
I believe in ality.
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GhoulGreen
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/11
Posts: 21
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I do not believe that the whole is more than the sum of it's parts. So in order to make a navigatable structure, there must be a distinction in value. This value might be of the same type or "the same" and thus non-dual.
But perhaps where this distiction of value emerges is the basis, and duality is the ground priciple. In order for non-dualism to hold there must must be a sheet of paper on which one can draw without a writing implement. This would be everything and infinity, and this statement is in line with the way I think about the everything.
Be it empty or full or in between
Be it black or white or unseen
It needs to have two
In order to create you
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eat shit suck fuck kill and die honest
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Wise Toad
Registered: 06/08/10
Posts: 2,690
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The future of existence is triality, any philosopher will tell you that
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