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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #15254636 - 10/20/11 10:26 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mufungo said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Death anxiety is a temporary illusion as well. It depends on quite a bit.




What did ya mean here by it depends on quite a bit?



Quote:

Kickle said:
I doubt the rotting corpse of my Grandmother experiences death anxiety. So what's different in those conditions as opposed to the conditions I find myself in. That's a starting point for "quite a bit".




By talking indirectly around whatever it is your talking about, with the use of 'it' and a deletion of what 'it depends on', and then alluding to what you meant with a reference to a grandma, instead of speaking directly, it all sounds vague as to me. So I'll seek to clarify...

Are you trying to say:

Death anxiety is a temporary illusion which is dependent upon being alive.  ???

Circle with a 2B pencil, "Yes" or "No".

If "no", please clarify as directly as possible.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle]
    #15254679 - 10/20/11 10:34 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

d33p said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Or maybe you simply aren't understanding what I'm saying. You're assuming a whole lot based on your personal perspective yet not actually countering anything. Let's start with countering my claim that objective study, or the study of objects, is not actually studying an object but rather the illusion of such.




Meaning is the illusion. Words do not have any inherent meaning. We give meaning to words through use within contextual constraints to accomplish ends.

What is the significance of the study of objects actually being the study of the illusion of an object? What is it about the physical world or the conceptual framework you use to interpret it that makes your claim better in terms of correspondence and/or coherence? Why would the phrase "I study the illusion of an apple" be superior to "I study an apple?"




So you don't have a counter? Well if you think of one you let me know.




You established a premise, the validity of which, relies upon the way that you have defined vague terms. What kind of counter are you looking for... "I define study, object, and illusion differently than you do, so I'm right!"

Again, what is the meaningful difference between believing that one is studying an object and believing that one is studying an illusion of an object? Why do you think it is better to think of it as studying the illusion of an object?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: d33p]
    #15254792 - 10/20/11 10:57 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Again, what is the meaningful difference between believing that one is studying an object and believing that one is studying an illusion of an object? Why do you think it is better to think of it as studying the illusion of an object?

What's the meaningful difference between anything? It's all in how you use it. If you can't make use of that idea, disregard it.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Mufungo]
    #15254816 - 10/20/11 11:02 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mufungo said:
Quote:

Mufungo said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Death anxiety is a temporary illusion as well. It depends on quite a bit.




What did ya mean here by it depends on quite a bit?



Quote:

Kickle said:
I doubt the rotting corpse of my Grandmother experiences death anxiety. So what's different in those conditions as opposed to the conditions I find myself in. That's a starting point for "quite a bit".




By talking indirectly around whatever it is your talking about, with the use of 'it' and a deletion of what 'it depends on', and then alluding to what you meant with a reference to a grandma, instead of speaking directly, it all sounds vague as to me. So I'll seek to clarify...

Are you trying to say:

Death anxiety is a temporary illusion which is dependent upon being alive.  ???

Circle with a 2B pencil, "Yes" or "No".

If "no", please clarify as directly as possible.




What are you trying to discover with these questions? It depends on quite a bit is a sufficient answer for me and I don't see a need to be any more specific. Anyone is welcome to explore the concept if they'd like and see what their own personal death anxiety depends on if they have any.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #15255447 - 10/21/11 03:49 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

So you couldn't answer "yes" or "no" to my question, huh?

I'm just trying to discover what you're on about when you said "It depends on quite a bit". Because it left me hanging in vague, "what's this guy on about?" territory.

Just because what you said is sufficient for You doesn't mean a lick of difference to how unclear what you've said is to other people. Because, you started from a position of knowing what you were on about before you began to communicate with us, we didn't. So I only have to go off "It depends on quite a bit" and the bit before it about death anxiety being an illusion, and then the reference about grandma rotting.

So I have know idea what "it" is and then what "it" is meant to be depending on. Depending on what? I started out with a simple question of "what did you mean by "it depends on quite a bit"?" which then didn't get a direct answer, instead an allusory one. So because my first question failed at determining any clarity on what you meant by "it depends on quite a bit", I thought I'd cut to the chase and ask a close ended question based on what I thought you might have been meaning, which simply required a "yes" or a "no" answer. And then you've evaded that for some reason, stating that you know what you're on about and therefore that's all that's meant to matter? Okey dokey then, suuuurrrre.

Well I'm no closer to understanding what you meant when you said "It depends on quite a bit". I've tried twice to clarify and you either can't or don't want to, so having hit that wall...  :shrug:


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Offlineblingbling
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle]
    #15255511 - 10/21/11 04:33 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Again, what is the meaningful difference between believing that one is studying an object and believing that one is studying an illusion of an object? Why do you think it is better to think of it as studying the illusion of an object?

What's the meaningful difference between anything? It's all in how you use it. If you can't make use of that idea, disregard it.




Thats called pragmatism. It was championed by the psychologist william james and seems to be reemerging as a legitimate mode of scientific inquiry.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Mufungo]
    #15255902 - 10/21/11 08:41 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

So you couldn't answer "yes" or "no" to my question, huh?

I could, I choose not to. I don't see any benefit to the clarification on either side. You asked what happens if I apply the logic of the OP to death anxiety, and quite simply when I apply it I find my death anxiety is dependent on quite a bit. I could go further and explain my personal hang-ups but I think the answer I gave is sufficient. To simplify, death anxiety is dependent. The specific dependencies are only important to me on a personal level not universally, and so I see no reason to bring them in to the debate. And once again, if anyone wants to get their own specifics they are welcome to start looking for them.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: blingbling]
    #15255921 - 10/21/11 08:48 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Again, what is the meaningful difference between believing that one is studying an object and believing that one is studying an illusion of an object? Why do you think it is better to think of it as studying the illusion of an object?

What's the meaningful difference between anything? It's all in how you use it. If you can't make use of that idea, disregard it.




Thats called pragmatism. It was championed by the psychologist william james and seems to be reemerging as a legitimate mode of scientific inquiry.




If that is pragmatism, what are some alternatives? Far as I can tell that's how humanity has always made decisions. If we can use something, or feel we can use something, we do so. If we cannot, we disregard.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle]
    #15255951 - 10/21/11 08:57 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

alternatives include: instrumentalism, radical empiricism, verificationism and conceptual relativity although they are all pretty similar in one way or another.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: blingbling]
    #15255981 - 10/21/11 09:04 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Oh I see. I was just trying to say take it or leave it but I mixed in how I see humans deciding whether to take it or leave it.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle]
    #15256245 - 10/21/11 10:30 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

DisoRDeR said:
Quote:

Kickle said:

What distinguishes science from illusion is that science is attempting to build a model of reality that does not contradict itself.


Sure, I think that's driven by death anxiety. As a goal it has failed because we continually find contradictions in our theories and as greater amounts of information come to light we learn we were seeing things in a skewed and limiting way from the get go. Just think about the first models of the atom and where we are now. How many contradictions have there been along the way? Do you think an atom is an independent thing that we can actually point to? I think an atom is an illusion we create to appear independent and as the conditions we examine it in change, the whole model of what an atom is has to change. I am unconvinced that there is actually an independent atom that once and for all will be settled on. At best it will be another road built through conditions to create the illusion of independence. If this is present, and this is present...(this list of conditions could become very long)... then you get an atom. 





I don't understand how you can conclude that the goal of science to build a model of reality that does not contradict itself has failed by citing the evolutionary model-refining process of science?




The model continually contradicts itself, that's how. The contradictions are kept loose by calling the models "theories" rather than "reality" which I think is a great step up from the dogma of most ideologies. But they exist all the same. If I theorize A and provide evidence for it, the idea is put into practice and becomes widely accepted, and then new findings reveal I was full of shit, there is a contradiction here. Lobotomies anyone? Lobotomies have been phased out entirely because of new evidence, but at one point they were accepted as the peak of neurological procedures, going so far as to be awarded a Nobel prize for the "discovery of the therapeutic value of lobotomies in certain psychoses". That history doesn't disappear despite moving forward. The effects of that were far reaching and remnants probably linger still yet. A man who was one day called a hero soon became a demon. Are you suggesting this happened because of a non-contradictory model? 

Quote:


Also, this.




Cool, thanks. Not sure how that relates tho. Nothing in that article contradicts what I've said.





I'm suggesting that failure is an inappropriate term to apply to the scientific process.

Depending on the perspective taken, science either failed the moment it was conceived, or is incapable of failure.  Isolating particular states of scientific models and deeming them failures because in retrospect, they were incomplete, inconsistent with observations not yet made, harmful, etc. seems as silly as having faith in any particular model. 

Say I decide to begin drawing the longest line in the universe.  The next day you visit me and see that I've only completed one kilometre.  Would you declare my endeavor a failure?  What if there was a discontinuity in the line where my crayon broke?  Oh woe is me.  But if it is eventually noticed and repaired, have I failed?

To me this sort of thinking, the very use of the word success or failure in reference to the method is more akin to the optical illusion as described in the OP than the scientific process is.  Only from particular perspectives can you make such a declaration.

Now, if you're taking science to refer to the body of knowledge held by particular minds based on particular observations at a moment in time and comparing it to the whole which you assume is unknowable, then sure, it's all fail.  There's good piece of humble pie to be bitten off there, so I can appreciate that.

Quote:

All experiments are created with specific criteria that ultimately make the findings highly dependent. Yet no one considers this an illusion and I can only assume that is because of an assumed permanence or intrinsic nature to the phenomena observed. Yet it seems to me that everything that science finds is just as dependent as an optical illusion. If you remove any part of the illusion, the illusion falls apart. Without specific conditions, it falls apart.




But the whole point is to expand specificity towards universality.  And the trend is leading in that direction.

Science boxes in bits of the world to reduce variables and determine with as great a degree of certainty as possible the relationships between individual variables.  Outside of the box, observations must still accord with the conclusions or they will be relegated to the bin within which they are useful, with a big space full of question marks between the bins.

The precision of the conclusions is dependent upon the resolution of the observational instruments.  The arrogance of it creeps in when we fool ourselves into thinking we've isolated a particular variable.  There may be many more relationships nested within the smallest bit we can currently see, but science (done properly) makes no declarations as to the complete nature of objects, only to the relationships between what we can see. 


Quote:

Science creates fixed perspectives.




Science expands the range within which knowledge can be considered reliable.  It is the explosion of fixed perspectives.

All this process has given us so far is models functional within a range of perspectives.  The process of science ideally learns in one a dexterity of perception allowing them to rummage through the bins and apply models without inflating them to obscure the mystery betwixt.  Fixed perspectives are only created within the minds of those who do not properly apply a scientific thought-process.  Yes, I realize that includes most everyone.

..

Also, I posted the link in order to point to an atom.  There it is.  As far as one can point to any thing, we can now point to an atom. 

The atomic model did not drastically change once tested against observations at the threshold of our capability.  We simply peered into it with increasing resolution and refined things.  If anyone thought the Bohr or any other model was complete then they simply misunderstood.

...
..
.

After all that noise, I'd agree that death anxiety is responsible for much of the motivation toward scientific endeavor as well as the folly of the model-faithful.  I guess I was just motivated to reply to what I interpreted to be your misrepresentation of science.

Thanks for the thought-provocation :rocket:

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #15256860 - 10/21/11 01:07 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the thought out response. I'm only speaking to science as it stands right where it is. It has failed at consistency (up to this point). Looking to the future who knows but I think people are very invested in its success because of death anxiety and the role that plays in skewing our perception when looking forward. We want it to be perfect and without any vulnerabilities or flaws, so when we look to the future we can imagine just that. But as it stands that's not the case and when I take a good honest look at it, I see zero reason to suspect that what has been happening will change. Science is not perfect and it is flawed by the very nature of being entwined with us.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle]
    #15257535 - 10/21/11 03:46 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the thought out response.

I keep telling myself I'm gonna learn how to do that. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Icelander]
    #15259153 - 10/21/11 09:34 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

:ilold:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Icelander]
    #15264882 - 10/23/11 04:16 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
[...]Haven't we been over this?[...]



From time to time it needs a reminder :stoned:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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