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OfflineKickleM
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Death Anxiety as seen in Science
    #15244127 - 10/18/11 06:19 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Just starting to explore this idea so bear with me as it forms.

What is the difference between an optical illusion seen from a fixed perspective and a scientific finding seen from a fixed perspective? This thought line might be confusing so I'll see if I can explain a bit. An illusion plays upon human senses, in the case of optical illusions sight. Remove sight and the optical illusion no longer works. So an optical illusion is in part dependent upon sight in order to function.

What makes science different from this? All experiments are created with specific criteria that ultimately make the findings highly dependent. Yet no one considers this an illusion and I can only assume that is because of an assumed permanence or intrinsic nature to the phenomena observed. Yet it seems to me that everything that science finds is just as dependent as an optical illusion. If you remove any part of the illusion, the illusion falls apart. Without specific conditions, it falls apart.

Science creates fixed perspectives. Through the scientific method a road is paved that ensures all the dependent pieces are there. Just as someone designing an optical illusion will pave the way for a viewer to see exactly what they need to see in order to perceive an illusion, so too the scientific method lays the groundwork for another to find the same illusion. Both the perception of the illusion and the scientific findings are completely replicable so long as the requirements are met. Take away the requirements and the illusion loses its power. It isn't real, it isn't intrinsically existing. Going back to the title, this is where I see death anxiety coming into science. The idea that the findings of science are anything more than a temporary illusion seems fed by our desire for permanence and consistency.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #15244258 - 10/18/11 06:55 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

" ignorance created by the wall of "knowledge" with which they encase themselves ? "

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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #15244309 - 10/18/11 07:08 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Very cool. :strokebeard: I'm still trying to understand this whole death anxiety thing. I'm currently on the final chapter of The Denial of Death so I'm sorry if I don't fully comprehend it, although I think I have a good grasp on it. (I think I'll need a second read through :devil:)

I think your logic makes sense. I totally see people say that they are contributing to science for the greater good of mankind. With that, I think it could be argued that it's just another heroism for them to feel like a greater part of something.

But to your actual point of science, I think science does lay down this ground work of illusion that others afterwards pick up. From what I observe, this is why young scientists seem to be able to create new theories because they haven't been fed that much of the illusion and are willing to think outside of the box. (Kurt Gödel, Albert Einstein, Erwin Schrödinger)

But I think you're talking about an even broader term.

Quote:

Kickle said:
It isn't real, it isn't intrinsically existing... The idea that the findings of science are anything more than a temporary illusion seems fed by our desire for permanence and consistency.




I think this specifically is very interesting. I suppose it's just another thing that humans cling to for a sense of comfort. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

A question that rose for we was: do you think illusion free science could be done? Or is it too dependent on the previously laid ground work have to have to be build off of?


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Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle]
    #15244341 - 10/18/11 07:26 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Just starting to explore this idea so bear with me as it forms.

What is the difference between an optical illusion seen from a fixed perspective and a scientific finding seen from a fixed perspective? This thought line might be confusing so I'll see if I can explain a bit. An illusion plays upon human senses, in the case of optical illusions sight. Remove sight and the optical illusion no longer works. So an optical illusion is in part dependent upon sight in order to function.

What makes science different from this? All experiments are created with specific criteria that ultimately make the findings highly dependent. Yet no one considers this an illusion and I can only assume that is because of an assumed permanence or intrinsic nature to the phenomena observed. Yet it seems to me that everything that science finds is just as dependent as an optical illusion. If you remove any part of the illusion, the illusion falls apart. Without specific conditions, it falls apart.

Science creates fixed perspectives. Through the scientific method a road is paved that ensures all the dependent pieces are there. Just as someone designing an optical illusion will pave the way for a viewer to see exactly what they need to see in order to perceive an illusion, so too the scientific method lays the groundwork for another to find the same illusion. Both the perception of the illusion and the scientific findings are completely replicable so long as the requirements are met. Take away the requirements and the illusion loses its power. It isn't real, it isn't intrinsically existing. Going back to the title, this is where I see death anxiety coming into science. The idea that the findings of science are anything more than a temporary illusion seems fed by our desire for permanence and consistency.





Becker would agree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #15244353 - 10/18/11 07:33 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

How would we determine what the illusions are and when we are most susceptible to them ?

  I think science and religion are both in a race to save us from our own mortality. Religion promises us that death is just a transition of sorts, while science promises to one day cure us of death. The only real cure for death anxiety is an honest acceptance of the inevitable, and to deny the inevitable is to deny the truth. To some acceptance is to much like resignation for them to ever really reach a level of honest acceptance, and so rather than 'give in', they continue to struggle against the inevitable.

"To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?" ~ Will.I.am Shakespeare

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: r72rock]
    #15244528 - 10/18/11 08:11 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I think this specifically is very interesting. I suppose it's just another thing that humans cling to for a sense of comfort. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

Mine either. But it does make me question the sense of superiority that many gain from having scientific evidence and I include myself here.


A question that rose for we was: do you think illusion free science could be done? Or is it too dependent on the previously laid ground work have to have to be build off of?


The scientific method requires a road be built from start to finish. Anyone can do exploring on their own but to be considered science you have to ensure others can travel to and see what you saw. That requires the creation of conditions. As soon as that happens you lose the chance of finding something independent, or as I suggest in this post, not buried in the illusion of being independent.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Icelander]
    #15244598 - 10/18/11 08:27 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Just starting to explore this idea so bear with me as it forms.

What is the difference between an optical illusion seen from a fixed perspective and a scientific finding seen from a fixed perspective? This thought line might be confusing so I'll see if I can explain a bit. An illusion plays upon human senses, in the case of optical illusions sight. Remove sight and the optical illusion no longer works. So an optical illusion is in part dependent upon sight in order to function.

What makes science different from this? All experiments are created with specific criteria that ultimately make the findings highly dependent. Yet no one considers this an illusion and I can only assume that is because of an assumed permanence or intrinsic nature to the phenomena observed. Yet it seems to me that everything that science finds is just as dependent as an optical illusion. If you remove any part of the illusion, the illusion falls apart. Without specific conditions, it falls apart.

Science creates fixed perspectives. Through the scientific method a road is paved that ensures all the dependent pieces are there. Just as someone designing an optical illusion will pave the way for a viewer to see exactly what they need to see in order to perceive an illusion, so too the scientific method lays the groundwork for another to find the same illusion. Both the perception of the illusion and the scientific findings are completely replicable so long as the requirements are met. Take away the requirements and the illusion loses its power. It isn't real, it isn't intrinsically existing. Going back to the title, this is where I see death anxiety coming into science. The idea that the findings of science are anything more than a temporary illusion seems fed by our desire for permanence and consistency.





Becker would agree.





This shit made me feel sick when I started writing it out. All I had in mind going into this was emptiness and then I stumbled upon my own death anxiety reinforcing something empty. Shit. :puke:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle]
    #15244765 - 10/18/11 09:00 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
. . . It does make me question the sense of superiority that many gain from having scientific evidence and I include myself here.





Totally. In western society, science is usually held as a pinnacle of truth.


Quote:

Kickle said:
The scientific method requires a road be built from start to finish. Anyone can do exploring on their own but to be considered science you have to ensure others can travel to and see what you saw. That requires the creation of conditions. As soon as that happens you lose the chance of finding something independent, or as I suggest in this post, not buried in the illusion of being independent.




Hmmmm... :strokebeard: I like that analogy of science. Do you think then that objective science is impossible or pointless? I know you're not directly saying that, but I'm just curious what you might think of that.


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Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #15244788 - 10/18/11 09:07 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Just starting to explore this idea so bear with me as it forms.

What is the difference between an optical illusion seen from a fixed perspective and a scientific finding seen from a fixed perspective? This thought line might be confusing so I'll see if I can explain a bit. An illusion plays upon human senses, in the case of optical illusions sight. Remove sight and the optical illusion no longer works. So an optical illusion is in part dependent upon sight in order to function.

What makes science different from this? All experiments are created with specific criteria that ultimately make the findings highly dependent. Yet no one considers this an illusion and I can only assume that is because of an assumed permanence or intrinsic nature to the phenomena observed. Yet it seems to me that everything that science finds is just as dependent as an optical illusion. If you remove any part of the illusion, the illusion falls apart. Without specific conditions, it falls apart.

Science creates fixed perspectives. Through the scientific method a road is paved that ensures all the dependent pieces are there. Just as someone designing an optical illusion will pave the way for a viewer to see exactly what they need to see in order to perceive an illusion, so too the scientific method lays the groundwork for another to find the same illusion. Both the perception of the illusion and the scientific findings are completely replicable so long as the requirements are met. Take away the requirements and the illusion loses its power. It isn't real, it isn't intrinsically existing




Hence comes the difference between gnosis and knowledge. Mere endless intellectual knowledge of the world and its mechanics is just knowledge of the illusion and how it functions.. the world of relativities. If the phenomonol world is an illusion than this "knowledge" is none at all.

Scientists come to agreement upon the natural world functions mechanically, but what does that say of its real nature? Its inner cause?

It is up to the individual to develop his mind, to advance his conceptions of reality and to see it for himself. Many today think naively feel that it comes down to experiments and scientific revelations to say what is truth.. as if it is not up to every individual to fathom and grasp, blow his mind in order to see the truth.. haha

Yeah, people cling to science as they do religion, is death anxiety the cause? I think it's an important component of the fear. But I think an even deeper fear is that at the back of everyones minds they know they know absolutely nothing.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle]
    #15245131 - 10/18/11 10:21 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

interesting thought kickle! :thumbup:

looking through a telescope/microscope is an optical illusion. the difference i think is that science is about useful 'illusions'.

it is only the expression of death anxiety if you treat it as the expression of ultimate truth. but everything can become an expression of death anxiety... even a theory about death anxiety :lol:


last night i had this recollection of myself as a kid. i was always terrified of death. every night i would lie in bed and think, some day i am going to be lying just like this, knowing no more and no less, and it will be the moment before i die... i used to pray every night that i wouldnt die. i even used to be terrified that in a day or year i would not be the same person...

anyway i have always looked back at that childhood memory sort of condescendingly. but last night i really felt it again, as if it had never left.

:feelsweirdman:


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InvisibleWhite Beard


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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle]
    #15246355 - 10/19/11 09:06 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

"Equations are more important to me, because politics is for the present, but an equation is something for eternity." -Einstein

I guess Einstein had death anxiety too.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: White Beard]
    #15246422 - 10/19/11 09:30 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Everyone imo, no matter what they say.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Icelander]
    #15247005 - 10/19/11 12:14 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Death anxiety is not bad if one doesn't loose the other side of the medal out of sight.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #15247914 - 10/19/11 03:31 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I have no idea what that means?:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblethe human abstract
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle]
    #15247958 - 10/19/11 03:39 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Some people on youtube say that they have brought energy to Avery and talked to the Knights Templar

Some say that Cyclopse exist in South American Labs hidden in the hills

some people say they have broke atoms

I :lol: bc it's funny to me


--------------------
★★

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: soldatheero]
    #15248209 - 10/19/11 04:32 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
Do you think then that objective science is impossible or pointless? I know you're not directly saying that, but I'm just curious what you might think of that.




I think it's impossible as I suspect there aren't any objects to speak of. We create objects in our mind. I don't think it's pointless however. It's the system we've settled on for now and at this moment it's very meaningful for humanity. Given time it will likely seem just as silly as anything else from the past.

 
Quote:

soldatheero said:
Yeah, people cling to science as they do religion, is death anxiety the cause? I think it's an important component of the fear. But I think an even deeper fear is that at the back of everyones minds they know they know absolutely nothing.




The two seem entwined in me. If one admits they know nothing then it's impossible to claim you're alive or that you're anything, which is akin to saying "you" no longer exist. Can't have one without the other. Although IMO knowledge is sought in order to shield us from our fear of ceasing to exist rather than a fear of death being a way to cope with not knowing. Because one can not know what comes after death and yet still be terrified of it. But people create knowledge of a thousand different post-death scenarios and it seems to mask that fear. A mask for fear built with the illusion of knowledge.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleWhite Beard


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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle]
    #15248222 - 10/19/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:

The two seem entwined in me. If one admits they know nothing then it's impossible to claim you're alive or that you're anything, which is akin to saying "you" no longer exist. Can't have one without the other. Although IMO knowledge is sought in order to shield us from our fear of ceasing to exist rather than a fear of death being a way to cope with not knowing. Because one can not know what comes after death and yet still be terrified of it. But people create knowledge of a thousand different post-death scenarios and it seems to mask that fear. Masking the fear behind the illusion of knowledge.




Wow, that was a beautiful read :thumbup:

It seems like hell is also a shield. It's better to know you're going to hell then to have no idea what-so-ever.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: White Beard]
    #15248269 - 10/19/11 04:51 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)



Watch that first step.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleWhite Beard


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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: Kickle]
    #15248622 - 10/19/11 06:09 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I think I'm slowly getting death anxiety more and more. Man, I feel alone right now.

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Death Anxiety as seen in Science [Re: White Beard]
    #15248750 - 10/19/11 06:34 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

i dont think you 'get' it. i think its always there, the constant of your being... like the speed of light to the universe


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dripping with fantasy

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