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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Genetic decline....
    #1521117 - 05/05/03 03:55 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I'm courious, because of an experiment that I had done a couple of years ago, I was aware of clone degrade when used on the same agar and substrates over prolonged periods. My experiment involved the same principals, but as opposed to clones, it began with spores to mature fruit bodies and new prints, fresh incoulation with the second gen spores and so forth...the earliest I had noticed a decline in the fruiting bodies maintaining the same substrate and incubation/fruiting conditions was 4 generations.....has any one else done any research in this area....

the reason I ask is this was a question that was presented in a.d.m. and I responded by giving my results and one of the relies in the thread was in regards to some of Stamets work but it was being discounted based on the fact that there is no variations in nature with regard to the growing meduim....we all know that no 2 trees are the same and even within one tree the properties vary from one spot to another and in a field, 2 cows eat differently and grain consistency may differ from week to week.....none of this takes into account the fluctuations in temperature, humidity, moisture levels and light....

anyway, I guess I want to compare notes somewhat and point these guys over this way in order to find more answers with the research of others....

Prisoner#1


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Invisiblepoke smot!
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Re: Genetic decline.... *DELETED* [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #1521325 - 05/05/03 08:37 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by poke smot!

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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Genetic decline.... [Re: poke smot!]
    #1521502 - 05/05/03 11:40 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

From spore to fruit to spore and back again. Well over 10 generations (maybe half again as many) on the same substrate, same paramaters ( with slight variations in ambient humidity and temp through seasons though). Never saw a decline at all. Bird seed cased with 50/50+. Prints always taken from A) largest 1st flush fruit and B) first maturing first flush fruit.

Experiment done to try and select for larger and faster fruiting substrains. Limited results in this regards. Last generation was maybe 10% better, but this could be explained away as chance. Anyway, no degradation of strain was noticed.

On a different but related topic, I cloned continuously for about a year, and saw none of the much dreaded and discussed senescence.

IMO, strain degradation from substrate selectivity when working with spores to cloning related degradation are much more commonly talked about than actually experienced. Not stating this, cuz I know lots of people have reported problems that don't mesh with my experiences, just giving my opinion.

Think about it this way, the millions of spores in a print represent countless variations. 2 spores mate and exchange data, resulting in even more variations. These variations aren't likely to be bred out in only a few generations. And even if the absolute number of positive variants declines, the remaining ones are even more likely to overpower the others and claim the majority of the substrate. Even invade the cellular networks and force their dna into the mycelia of the less favored substrains (the very interesting and little known phenomenon of "non-self unions" discussed only briefly in GG&MM). I think it would be akin to trying to breed Blackness out of the skins of Africans within a few generations simply by moving them to Alaska and feeding them diets of Fish and Asparagus.

And on the senescence feared through successive cloning. Stamets gives explicit instructions on turning a single petri dish of mycelium into over 1 million fruiting blocks, each yielding 1-3 pounds of fruits a piece. If the fungus is capable of this many cell divisions without declining, then most home cultivators will never come close to degrading their strains simply by cloning. Other environmental factors may be at play such as exposure to caustic chemicals, but the fungus is capable of handling far more cell divisions and thriving than we usually give it credit for.

my $.03


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OfflineRustik
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Re: Genetic decline.... [Re: mycofile]
    #1523570 - 05/06/03 02:05 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

AND as long as there are places like this where people can exchange spores (see the VVVVV thread in the marketplace), strain degredation should never be a problem.  :wink:

It's like following the trail of a dollar bill around the country, but instead of getting a little more used and worn as it passes from hand to hand, it actually is refreshed! I'm sure we don't ALL use the same substrates/formulas, so hey - we should never have a problem. :smile: 


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Genetic decline.... [Re: Rustik]
    #1523788 - 05/06/03 05:16 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I normaly had varied the substrate but I always had an experimental portion to abuse and mistreat...I personaly have not worried about it because of the fact I'm inconsistant with maintaining environment and always willing to try new materials and techniques...this was an observation I had made on one instance out of 3 in trying to maintain a constant...as this was a single case I'm sure it wont hold true to every situation or strain but because the question had been asked I was looking to see how many others had tried.... I managed to talk a couple of people I know into trying it to see how isolated the incident may have been

anyway...thanks for the responses and I'll stick this in the hands of the folks in a.d.m when I can....I'll also post anything relayed as to the new projects should any thing occur...

P#1


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

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