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OfflineNoteworthy
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saturns bloody hexagon
    #15199503 - 10/09/11 09:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

ok so the hexagon has been known to be up there for 5 years now (over 20 if you consider the first sighting).
For whatever reason, ive never seen this reported on the news or anywhere on television. I have only seen it reported on the internet.
For some reason I have also seen plenty of people say 'oh its just a wave interference pattern, check out cymatics!'
Ive also found websites like this:
http://news.discovery.com/space/saturns-north-pole-hexagon-mystery-solved.html
which claim to have 'solved' the mystery on Saturn.

what a load of crock!

imagine if someone told you they understood how hurricanes and tornadoes occur because they pulled the plug from their bathtub?

So I am wondering what you guys think.
Are you persuaded by the spinning bucket research into cymatics?
Are you persuaded by bizarre claims of alien or otherwise conscious influence?
Are you in a state of apathy about the matter?
Are you, like me, incredibly frustrated that things like this exist yet are barely spoken about and are given piss-weak 'explanations' then forgotten about?


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Offline5HTSynaptrip
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15199859 - 10/09/11 11:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Given the resources, or lack thereof, invested in this phenomenon it seems reasonable to me that eddies create the hexagonal shape... also it's the simplest explanation so far.


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #15200389 - 10/09/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

weird


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: imachavel]
    #15200487 - 10/09/11 01:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

why accept an explanation just because it is simple? why not settle with no explanation, if no explanation is really good enough?
The images dont actually show eddie currents and so I find it quite hard to believe.

of course it is possible but it could also represent some other sort of stablisation based on another mathematical relationship that yields hexagons, or maybe aliens


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15200605 - 10/09/11 01:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The mathematical relationship is clearly superior to aliens because it stems from simple assumptions that describe whole hosts of disparate phenomenon also it has measurable descriptive and predictive ability.

Why you mad?  You dont wanna talk to no scientists, them fuckers lying and getting you pissed?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15202000 - 10/09/11 06:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:

which claim to have 'solved' the mystery on Saturn.

what a load of crock!

imagine if someone told you they understood how hurricanes and tornadoes occur because they pulled the plug from their bathtub?






More percisely, they claim someone else has solved the mystery, and yet, that's not quite accurate. (really, I don't know if its fair to claim the article makes such a claim, but I'll adopt your interpretation, arguendo)

Its generally a bad idea to try and understand the results of experiments and the interpretations thereof from popsci or news websites.  They are notoriously wrong nearly all the time about some matter or other.  Often they overstate the case, neglect caveats, and advance hypotheticals as known phenomena.

This is the case here.

As you would expect, someone playing in their bathtub cannot "solve" the matter of the hurricane's mechanism, but they can show that the observations made of hurricanes are consistant with rather mundane natural phenomena.  This is helpful, and this is what occured in the case here.

Rather than claiming to have solved the matter of the hexagon, the paper's authors claim to have demonstrated a mechanism which produces the observations from known interactions in the system.  This is how science generally works: someone proposes an explanation and then that explanation is tested and excluded or supported.  Over time the more useful models prevail, and we better understand our world.

It seems you may have fallen into the trap alot of science critics sometimes do, and that's presuming popsci/news writers have accurately represented the study's results.

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
why accept an explanation just because it is simple? why not settle with no explanation, if no explanation is really good enough?




When does science ever settle on an explanation?  The idea is anathema to the whole idea of science.

Science is never able to determine what is fundamentally occuring.  All it can do, and all we can expect, is to develop useful models of our world which allow us to make predictions and understand the relationships between various processes.

As for why 'simple' things are accepted, generally the preference is on using known phenomena to explain things rather than unknown phenomena.  Rather than a preference for simplicity, this is a preference for not making shit up, like aliens or whatever.  Occam's Razor is generally a good heuristic.

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InvisibleHeruuka
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: johnm214]
    #15202935 - 10/09/11 10:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

shame- I was really hopin for 'aliens' to be the right answer. Fluid dynamics takes the fun out of everything.

well at least I have the image of what can only be described as a 'pussy-toaster' in the grain of the wood on my kitchen cabinet. That's definitely a sign from aliens to make a pussy-toaster that you can push the lever down on in the morning and have your way with, whilst drinking your coffee... all nice and toasty. Something like that can't possibly just be there.

...now for the prototype I will need one antique toaster and a rubber vagina...

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Heruuka]
    #15203681 - 10/10/11 02:14 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

those fuckin popscience writers represent science, though, and are the source for most people's views on science. So it also frustrates me when i get told that science is actually much more than that. This is because the role of science in society is not the same as the mission statement of scientists. Although scientists might believe they are doing something, their role in society is modulated by the way that the information reaches people and affects their beliefs.
This role is similar to the role of a religion - it creates a world view and seperates people from other world views.

People think science gives them the right to say that intelligent design is bogus, for example, when actually it just says that the bible story is bogus. This leads a lot of people to join groups like atheist evolutionary text-book-bashers which treat popular theories as if they are the truth which should be reconned with. This creates further social divisions which science itself does not support but which are justified via reference to science.

In the context of this thread, the hexagon on saturn is a powerful reminder that the universe is bizarre and unexplained, but as soon as simple ideas like fluid dynamics are mentioned as having a possible role to play, people are given an 'excuse' to ignore this bizarre phenomenon and continue acting like science is their answer to the universe (when it is not an answer but a method that entails many widely different possibilities while refuting many other possibilities) which might otherwise humble them. This just increases the chance of social seperation and premature judgement of views.

fuckin popscience writers

yall motherfucking lying and gettin me pissed


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Offline5HTSynaptrip
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15204800 - 10/10/11 11:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)



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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15204875 - 10/10/11 11:19 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
why accept an explanation just because it is simple?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
Assuming that it _does_ explain the phenomenon in question.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: koraks]
    #15205069 - 10/10/11 12:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

if you dont know what all the alternatives are, how do you know that your best explanation is really the simplest?


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15205093 - 10/10/11 12:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
if you dont know what all the alternatives are, how do you know that your best explanation is really the simplest?



You never know all the alternatives. There's inherent certainty to everything in life. Other than that: I don't think Occam's Razor is the answer to everything, and certainly, sometimes the best fitting explanation actually isn't so simple at all. But I do think that theories are preferred that explain a phenomenon based on known principles as opposed to ones that need to conjure up as of yet unknown beings and phenomena whose existence is only proven in the minds of the mentally disturbed. So I'd definitely prefer eddies over aliens.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: koraks]
    #15207757 - 10/10/11 10:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

and id prefer a large scale quantum superposition, so what? occams razor has its place - usually in practical situations for deciding plans of actions. It is better to bet on less than to bet on more. But when it comes to understanding the universe... the razor doesnt seem to have as much importance


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15208339 - 10/11/11 04:45 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> But when it comes to understanding the universe... the razor doesnt seem to have as much importance

Not really true.  I don't like using Occam's Razor (in debate), not because it is flawed, but because most people misuse it or don't understand its limitations.  Contrary to popular belief, it does not mean "the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one".  Instead, it means "when you have two choices, and all else is equal, go with the choice that has the fewest assumptions".  In science, for things like understanding the universe, Occam's Razor helps guide the direction of research, theories, and models.  It does not, (again) contrary to popular belief, dictate a result.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Seuss]
    #15208359 - 10/11/11 05:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Exactly. Also, it is important to note that I posted this only quasi-seriously. Realize very well the context in which Occam's Razor was proposed as a concept to guide 'scientific' advancement: it was a deeply religious context, and Ockham applied his razor (which he never formulated as such, but that's another story) in perfecting an essentially theist world view. Since biblical texts were the basis for that world view, the existing body of 'theory' was constructed around an existence of God. Applying the Razor in that context, it stands to reason that given to alternative theories, e.g. one a theist theory and the other one based on modern science, the theist theory would be preferable as it aligns better with the existing (theist) context. Hence, Occam's Razor is rather sensitive to what you may call path dependency or even groupthink. Or, in other words: in itself, it will not necessarily guide towards a better understanding of reality; it can only do so if the rest of the scientific context in which it is applied is geared towards producing and validating theory in a reliable manner.

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15208372 - 10/11/11 05:19 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
why accept an explanation just because it is simple?




Fundamental principle of logic known as Occam's Razor.
Not always right, but generally so, often enough to be valid.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Doc_T]
    #15208450 - 10/11/11 06:28 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> Fundamental principle of logic known as Occam's Razor.

You might want to read the previous two posts.  Again, Occam's Razor has nothing to do with the "simple explanation" being correct.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Seuss]
    #15209692 - 10/11/11 12:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
why accept an explanation just because it is simple?




Fundamental principle of logic known as Occam's Razor.
Not always right, but generally so, often enough to be valid.



often enough to be useful. validity is a logical matter. Assumedly, both options being looked at are equally valid, or else there is no need to apply occams razor.


Quote:

Seuss said:
> But when it comes to understanding the universe... the razor doesnt seem to have as much importance

Not really true.  I don't like using Occam's Razor (in debate), not because it is flawed, but because most people misuse it or don't understand its limitations.  Contrary to popular belief, it does not mean "the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one".  Instead, it means "when you have two choices, and all else is equal, go with the choice that has the fewest assumptions".  In science, for things like understanding the universe, Occam's Razor helps guide the direction of research, theories, and models.  It does not, (again) contrary to popular belief, dictate a result.




so basically you just agreed with what i said, that occams razor is a matter of pragmatic decision making rather than a matter of having greater understanding...


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Offline5HTSynaptrip
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15209933 - 10/11/11 01:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yea, but isn't good decision making what leads to a greater understanding?


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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InvisibleHeruuka
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #15210210 - 10/11/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I really just don't understand the point you're trying to make. Are you saying that scientists have a responsibility to add a disclaimer to their discoveries like "this finding only represents the results of our research and only provides a possible explanation for [x], which will likely change as more research is conducted"? Is that what's frustrating? or is it the way the media exploit research to make snappy headlines, betraying the actual science?

Also- intelligent design is anti-science. Why? because it is unscientific to propose a scenario that has no evidence to back it up. There is NO evidence of a creator or God, therefore it would be unscientific to suggest that one exists. You can believe whatever you want, but belief isn't science.

A fundamental misunderstanding of the general public is that science IS like a religion. It is just observations and discoveries and theory based on those observations. By definition it has no agenda and is unbiased. It isn't even a thing, its just a word for our collected body of objective knowledge. I can't really understand why people personify it, like there's some kinda organization or something.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15210284 - 10/11/11 03:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
those fuckin popscience writers represent science, though, and are the source for most people's views on science. So it also frustrates me when i get told that science is actually much more than that. This is because the role of science in society is not the same as the mission statement of scientists. Although scientists might believe they are doing something, their role in society is modulated by the way that the information reaches people and affects their beliefs.




k, so what?  This doesn't seem to have anything to do with the validity of the study in question nor the role of science. 

Yeah, it sucks that people misrepresent scientific works, but I find it hard to say that has a lot to do with science, other than the act that reporters either don't understand or are presuming their readers are too ignorant to understand.

Quote:


People think science gives them the right to say that intelligent design is bogus, for example, when actually it just says that the bible story is bogus.




People think a lot of things that aren't true, whether science justifies that belief or not is kinda moot to this discussion as far as I can tell.

Intelligent Design is such a nonentity that it is hard to say whether science says it is or isn't true.  Its certainly crap, but its hard to judge things like I.D. on their scientific merits because they aren't really scientific questions.  This is percisely why I.D. is crap: it generally doesn't include any particular valid hypothesises that yield predictions which might be tested, falsified, and so forth.

The equivocations of the I.D. crowd are endless, however; so its impossible to really say what I.D. is other than a diffuse body of claims linked by a claim that some intelligent being created terrestrial (all?) life.

Quote:

fuckin popscience writers

yall motherfucking lying and gettin me pissed




Basically.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: johnm214]
    #15210551 - 10/11/11 04:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Intelligent Design is such a nonentity that it is hard to say whether science says it is or isn't true.  Its certainly crap, but its hard to judge things like I.D. on their scientific merits because they aren't really scientific questions.  This is percisely why I.D. is crap: it generally doesn't include any particular valid hypothesises that yield predictions which might be tested, falsified, and so forth.





Yep, it's "not even wrong".

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #15211304 - 10/11/11 10:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

its crap... to the scientist. obviosuly because the scientist is trying to prove something. Why would everything be provable? Theres no reason to think that, we simply relish in what proofs/suggestions we can find, and that is the value of science.

I know 'geeky' science fans tend to go on and on about how science is NOT this and science is NOT that.... but in the end science IS a lot more than just what it sets out to be, because it plays a role in society. I happen to be interested in society and what makes it tick, therefore i am interested in the way people percieve science and the disclaimers that scientists give.


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Offline5HTSynaptrip
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15220130 - 10/13/11 03:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'm so deeply sorry that you've not been presented with classes that have made science special to you.  Fuck, I could give a damn about sociology and technical production, but I learned a lot and enjoyed them both.

There are plenty of big issues in science that are based off of little physical evidence, a lot of math, and obviously hypotheses.  Due to the clearly apparent lack of data, and the ridiculous costs it would demand to research further, the hexagon on Saturn is simply a hypothesis.  Why isn't it more important and why are people not willing to invest a shit-load of resources on it?  Maybe because the people studying it know quite a bit about their area(s) of expertise, and other data pertaining to Saturn simply lead to such hypotheses to arise about this phenomenon.  When other people who are interested in the same subjects, they'll read the research methods/data that's published and the fate of that publication falls under the jurisdiction of peer reviews. 

If you really want to have any understanding of science then just read from the mountain of literature that's increasing every day.  By the tone of your posts it seems like you've not done much from an actual scientific perspective, but instead fall prey to the "science" that's rocketed out of the bowels of the media(see my earlier link).  When you finally read enough about something you're interested in, and read about it all from publications prominent in their respective fields, you'll understand why we think what we do about your particular interest.  You may find your answer, but more importantly you will understand the general consensus regarding different hypotheses for your interest.  There will be no sugar-coating.  You'll know what was done, how it was done, look at the actual data, and there are never any games or media-spins.  Basically, it's knowing what the hell you're talking about because 90% of Americans probably couldn't correctly interpret shit, in any area of science, by just picking one up to read... the entire format is standardized so tons of info can be put in a rather short area(while including citations for virtually every claim).


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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InvisibleHeruuka
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15222846 - 10/13/11 11:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

(only you can read this, scientists have taken over and are speaking to you directly now)

For the record, you are right. Scientists are in charge of warping the feeble minds of the masses by telling them that the simplest answer is right. That way we can use all the money they give us for super secret alien projects. You like the ink in the water-globe thing? haha that was mine. What you're actually looking at is a vat of mind-control agent being mixed before being released as "chem trails". I can't believe those suckers bought that one! Oh AND you can tell anyone you want to about that or that scientists are out to prove... whatever... know why? cause no one is going to believe someone as willfully ignorant as you over us scientist types. How heavy is that burden? Wow! you, knowing the truth but no one believes you because they spend all their time reading propaganda that we've leaked out in the form of textbooks and journals over CENTURIES disguised as fact! hell, we're so good that they just believe us without even questioning it "What does science say is the cause - "Gravity"? whatever they say!" HA its PERFECT!

Well, don't blame us for your choosing this path. You were the one who decided not to 'drink the the koolaid' by attending 'Science Class', avoiding indoctrination. It could have been easy, like the others, BUT NOOOOOO instead you use drugs and other idiots, like your self, as your source of fact, cause theyre completely untainted by science of any kind. Very clever!... BUT How does it feel,though, to be shouting into the vacuum of space? no one can hear you, no one listens to you "IS this guy really suggesting that data has an agenda?"...haha GOTCHA! Not actually a vacuum in 'space', also a lie to stop people from trying to get to our secret base on the moon... the real moon, not the one you see- that's just a model.

Haha you're Neo but with only the power to be ignored and pitied!

Safe travels,
Science

(end transmission)

there's something weird going on here. my computer keeps... there! did you hear it? Agghhh what IS that??!! anyways, all i was gonna say was

Lookup 'Confirmation Bias'. Its pretty much how you form and justify every idea you have, so this should help in your future efforts of being a loud ignoramus.

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InvisibleShins
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Re: saturns bloody hexagon [Re: Heruuka]
    #15228147 - 10/15/11 02:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What does everyone think about the allegation that the black cube in mecca has something to do with saturn and its hexagon?


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