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Offlineg00ru
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
    #15225955 - 10/14/11 04:59 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

guruu said:
Ya know I try, and I'm taking an existentialism class right now so maybe i'll get better at it.  But for me it was not really a logical quest to arrive at it...it was a very emotional journey, it's like I arrived at an existential truth through necessity, so any logic i apply is in retrospect, and ultimately completely unnecessary.  Most of the time i try to appeal to an intuition deep within someone, because whether or not you accept what I say logically I can still hope to resonate with something behind your logical mind.

Like mooji for instance, is not interested in pacifying your thinking, planning mind.  He's interested in getting directly to the heart of the matter. 

And ya ya this is a debate forum, so i understand the annoyance, but.....:kingtard:





This is exactly how the door to door Christians work it.




the last door to door Christian salesman i talked to was this chill black guy, i gave him the time of day so he came back a few weeks later and we had a discussion, i was talking about eastern philosophies and how i felt they gave me greater freedom, my friend runs out while i'm saying this and gives me some bacon he had just made :lol: the guys wife was pretty hot too, she stood quietly in the background but i could tell she was very thoughtful about the whole thing. I read their pamphlets and actually i see a faire amount of truth in them, it's just completely back asswards in some behavioral regards in my opinion, but if it works for them that's great.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: g00ru]
    #15226254 - 10/14/11 06:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

:pope:

They think you're going to hell if you don't believe what they believe, but if it works for them. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
    #15226382 - 10/14/11 06:28 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Well I dont take it personally


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: g00ru]
    #15226663 - 10/14/11 07:27 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You're going to hell and you don't take that personally? :hellfire:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinedetest86
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
    #15228300 - 10/15/11 04:23 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

icelander, highlander?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: detest86]
    #15228350 - 10/15/11 05:20 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
    #15228754 - 10/15/11 09:06 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You're going to hell and you don't take that personally? :hellfire:




not at tall :bongload:


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: desert father] * 1
    #15228794 - 10/15/11 09:17 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

why do you act like death is considered a punishment by "ancestors" as you put it?

could this really be a gift?





We were talking about a simple concept of protection. I asked one of the neighbor children and she understood it. She said it is when someone prevents you from getting hurt.

These common words really trouble some people here for reasons unknown.


--------------------


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Offlinedesert father
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15229046 - 10/15/11 10:48 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

neighbor children?

i'm assuming you were talking to children who had an idea about what they were saying?

i mean spirituality is a subjective experience which changes with each individuals' interpretation, so assuming children understood exactly each shamans state of mind would be the same as assuming all christians hold the same values.


--------------------
vi veri veniversum vivus vici

What she said :
"I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an
Early death
AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
    #15229211 - 10/15/11 11:38 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
This is exactly how the door to door Christians work it.



:yesnod:


--------------------


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Offlineflickedbic
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: NetDiver]
    #15230556 - 10/15/11 05:59 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Shamans are said to gain protection with their practice; but this does not preclude: fake shamans, newer/ineffective shamans, shamans not practicing for protection, and shamans going into their deaths wilfully.

Blessings.


--------------------
Favorite entheogen experiences in descending order:
1)Combo of oral DMT + smoked Bufotenine
2)Amanita (urine drank twice)
3)Mushrooms > Achuma 16"+cid(still need higher dose Achuma)> Cid (still need high dose)
4)Morning Glory-HBWR (+cumin, cinnamon aldehyde adducts) > Methyl chavicol (need more activators)
5)Salvia (need to try quid)


All readable matter in the above post is ficticious... any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.

Blessing.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
    #15231558 - 10/15/11 10:23 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

That may be true, but I have never seen any proof that any shamans have ever gained any protection through their practice. And since shamans have been around for thousands of years, you would think there would be some reliable evidence.


--------------------


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Offlineyeah
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: NetDiver] * 1
    #15232868 - 10/16/11 09:13 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
That may be true, but I have never seen any proof that any shamans have ever gained any protection through their practice. And since shamans have been around for thousands of years, you would think there would be some reliable evidence.




what kind of 'proof' are you looking for?


--------------------


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: yeah] * 4
    #15232943 - 10/16/11 09:42 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Not being murdered would be a starting point. That is how the Witness Protection Program gauges success. :shrug:


WPP Boss to Agent Jones: That is the fourth witness you have lost this year!

Agent Jones: Sir, doesn't it all depend on how you define 'protect'? Doesn't all life eventually end?

WPP Boss: Clear out your desk. You're fired!


--------------------


Edited by OrgoneConclusion (10/16/11 10:04 AM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: desert father]
    #15233350 - 10/16/11 11:47 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

yeah said:
Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
That may be true, but I have never seen any proof that any shamans have ever gained any protection through their practice. And since shamans have been around for thousands of years, you would think there would be some reliable evidence.




what kind of 'proof' are you looking for?





I never get these kinds of posts that people make.  Why would it be presumed that the person:
a) is looking for a paritcular "kind" of proof, or evidence,or
b) it matters what the person "is looking for"?

If it doesn't matter, which seems to be the case, then of what relevance is the post?


I see these kinds of strange replies often in this forum and I never get what the point of them is, or why people or making them.  How could the answer to the question matter?  Its not like someone's arbitrary preferences have any bearing on the matter under discussion (whether some phenomena is proven, established, whatever)

Quote:

desert father said:
why do you act like death is considered a punishment by "ancestors" as you put it?


could this really be a gift?

to all leave physical awareness together?

could an ancestor get in the way of destiny?






Why do you presume he acted like death is considered a punishment by ancestors?  Far as I can tell, his point had nothing to do with that: the point was meerly that a bunch of shamans were killed by other people, and there is no evidence that their 'powers' had any effect on that.

Maybe their ancestors consider death to be the planet jupiter, who cares?  They're still dead and, hence, were not protected from the assault.

Quote:


i can see how that may be beyond your scope of consideration, as you are just another man scared of death. 




:rolleyes:

What you think of the poster is irrelevant.  Keep this kinda shit to yourself or PM.  And read the rules


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Offlineflickedbic
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15233365 - 10/16/11 11:50 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Written medical records in the forest might be a fairly sparce I imagine: and the "suvey size" of 14 (in which the incidents may all be related to one major causal event)is not a great test in the view of what could be termed my scientific mind.

Interesting idea; however: the recording of an array of entheogen-worker natives health/lifespans in relation to their non-commonly entheogen/plant-medicine using tribe members.

Blessings.


--------------------
Favorite entheogen experiences in descending order:
1)Combo of oral DMT + smoked Bufotenine
2)Amanita (urine drank twice)
3)Mushrooms > Achuma 16"+cid(still need higher dose Achuma)> Cid (still need high dose)
4)Morning Glory-HBWR (+cumin, cinnamon aldehyde adducts) > Methyl chavicol (need more activators)
5)Salvia (need to try quid)


All readable matter in the above post is ficticious... any similarities to real life are purely coincidental.

Blessing.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
    #15233610 - 10/16/11 12:53 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If no information is available on the issue (which I think it probably is; I don't think it would be beyond a group of anthropologists to figure out the average life expectancy of a couple thousand shamans), then why should you believe that they have extraordinary powers that no other human seems to be able to demonstrate?


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: flickedbic]
    #15233929 - 10/16/11 02:19 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Written medical records in the forest might be a fairly sparce I imagine

Let's say we grant this is true.

If that is insufficient evidence to conclude that shamans in fact have no protection, then based on what larger sample would one conclude that they DO in fact have magical protection?

There is no reason to think that shamans are anything other than delusional given that 1) there is zero evidence that they have magical protection and 2) there is sparse evidence (the 14 dead guys) that they don't. On the whole, it looks a lot more like they don't than they do.

You can't have it both ways, yo.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: NetDiver]
    #15234100 - 10/16/11 02:54 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

It defense of the shamans, they probably aren't outright hucksters like some of their european and north american counterparts. In a preindustrial society, which I'm assuming the "Shawi" ethnic group in Peru is because I can't find any other info on them, a born and bred shaman has no reason not to believe his powers and visions are real, because he lacks the nonlocal experience and communication that we enjoy, and serves a variety of functions outside of "magic", usually filling the roles of a tribal historian, counselor, match maker, etc.

My point is this, if I may be allowed to take a Guns, Germs, and Steel approach to it, is that these shamans aren't idiots, and are likely some of the smarter people in their communities. They simply don't have the perspective or scientific advancement to see why some of their remedies work and some don't. Were they raised in an industrial society, they would most likely be academics or professionals of some kind.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: crumblebum]
    #15234157 - 10/16/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I agree,  they are not the ancient superiors that the new agers here try and make them out to be.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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