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dustinthewind13
Fool



Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 5,219
Loc: Being a burden
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Quote:
HigherConsciousnes said: Maybe you can't stop your fate? You can know it's going to happen but you can't escape it.
Then I don't want to know it. Just one more thing to worry about. I always though shamanism was an alternative form of psychotherapy. If what you say is shamanism, then I'm sticking to quasi-shamanism, which is whatever I make of it.
-------------------- "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "A room without books is like a body without a soul." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
HigherConsciousnes said: Maybe you can't stop your fate? You can know it's going to happen but you can't escape it.
Then I don't want to know it. Just one more thing to worry about. I always though shamanism was an alternative form of psychotherapy. If what you say is shamanism, then I'm sticking to quasi-shamanism, which is whatever I make of it.
Quasi-Shamanism?
What the fuck is next. Kill this thread move on.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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dustinthewind13
Fool



Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 5,219
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse]
#15215364 - 10/12/11 05:51 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
HigherConsciousnes said: Maybe you can't stop your fate? You can know it's going to happen but you can't escape it.
Then I don't want to know it. Just one more thing to worry about. I always though shamanism was an alternative form of psychotherapy. If what you say is shamanism, then I'm sticking to quasi-shamanism, which is whatever I make of it.
Quasi-Shamanism?
What the fuck is next. Kill this thread move on.
What is shamanism in your opinion?
-------------------- "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "A room without books is like a body without a soul." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
HigherConsciousnes said: Maybe you can't stop your fate? You can know it's going to happen but you can't escape it.
Then I don't want to know it. Just one more thing to worry about. I always though shamanism was an alternative form of psychotherapy. If what you say is shamanism, then I'm sticking to quasi-shamanism, which is whatever I make of it.
Quasi-Shamanism?
What the fuck is next. Kill this thread move on.
What is shamanism in your opinion?
You really are a fucking troll.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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dustinthewind13
Fool



Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 5,219
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse]
#15215482 - 10/12/11 06:15 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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How so?
-------------------- "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "A room without books is like a body without a soul." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Get the fuck rid of the annoying sig for beginners.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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dustinthewind13
Fool



Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 5,219
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse]
#15215564 - 10/12/11 06:34 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: Get the fuck rid of the annoying sig for beginners.
-------------------- "It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "A room without books is like a body without a soul." - Marcus Tullius Cicero "Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
LunarEclipse said: Get the fuck rid of the annoying sig for beginners.

Fucking keep it.
Fits you perfect.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: LunarEclipse] 2
#15215804 - 10/12/11 07:22 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Alright Lunar,
You're taking a break. The next one will be VERY long so think carefully before you continue.
And annoying sig? From someone who posts nothing but noise, off-topic crap, and annoying videos that nobody watches? Are you kidding me? I'll take the sig any day.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Luueschen
Vampire


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 655
Loc: Southern CA
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Shamans allegedly practice their craft for wisdom and protection. They obviously got neither.
Come on man...even Babas get sick sometimes
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zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Luueschen]
#15217784 - 10/13/11 04:59 AM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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What is shamanism? Well the actual term --which is over-used, especially by New Agers--originates from Siberia and using that term to designate other indigenous peoples healers tends to annoy them somewhat!
This will mean in Peru too, though as far as I am aware, the healers there do not on the whole reject the term as fervently as some native American peoples have. But for example, in South America, a healer who uses as hir sacrament the sacred vine, Ayahuasca, is called an Ayahuescero, and/or a curandero. And all of them will have their own traditional ways.
Do I have a critique if 'shamanism'? Well, first off I respect them, but I also question ALL authority. I read a very unique book years ago titled Shamanism: The Foundations of Magic, by Ward Rutherford, and he critiques shamanism saying that in its male predominant phase the shamans would feel threatened by the more communal ecstatic religion of the Goddess where ALL the participants take the sacrament and become possessed, because it threatedned his authority. For often it is only the shaman who will take the mind-altering vegetation/substance to perform healing---in this way it is easy to see how his authority could get out of hand?
Whats that sayin agin: give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime
This is why I would rather encourage support, for others, yes, but also encouraging self-healing rather than depending on some authority figure
In some 'shamanic' culture the shamans can be under threat from their own tribe, because of the fear that because they know how to heal they also know how to harm---and sometimes superstition will scapegoat the shaman!
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15217815 - 10/13/11 05:35 AM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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zzripz, I asked you about your previous claims, in response you answered my questions with your own, such as:
"WHY do I have to throw sources at you, and you dont at me?
hey??"
Though this and other questions seemed evasive, I answered them anyways. Now you appear to have let the matter drop, but have still not answered th questions I've asked you. You've made several claims in this thread and I've answered all the questions you asked- its time for you to reciprocate.
Quote:
zzripz said:
Do I have a critique if 'shamanism'? Well, first off I respect them, but I also question ALL authority. I read a very unique book years ago titled Shamanism: The Foundations of Magic, by Ward Rutherford, and he critiques shamanism saying that in its male predominant phase the shamans would feel threatened by the more communal ecstatic religion of the Goddess where ALL the participants take the sacrament and become possessed, because it threatedned his authority. For often it is only the shaman who will take the mind-altering vegetation/substance to perform healing---in this way it is easy to see how his authority could get out of hand?
Or, you could base your views on logic and evidence and not worry about things like "respect" and "authority" in ariving at your world view. Who cares whether some shaman dude is threatened by "the religion of the Goddess" (whatever that is) or whether he wants certain people to take the drugs or not take them?
Quote:
This is why I would rather encourage support, for others, yes, but also encouraging self-healing rather than depending on some authority figure
How do you self heal or even determine what is useful as a healing tool?
It seems kind of difficult to imagine how you could identify truth without having any ability to explain how you know it is truth, especially when you both claim not to rely on authority and then equivocate on those few things you have claimed.
How do you know if your 'teaching a man to fish" or just bullshiting him with a bunch of old prejudice and bullshit, like the other stereotypical mystics, religious authorities, et cet?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Diploid] 3
#15217821 - 10/13/11 05:41 AM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Alright Lunar,
You're taking a break. The next one will be VERY long so think carefully before you continue.
And annoying sig? From someone who posts nothing but noise, off-topic crap, and annoying videos that nobody watches? Are you kidding me? I'll take the sig any day.

-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214]
#15217924 - 10/13/11 06:55 AM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do you understand that there is a left brain and a right brain approach to reality or do you insist everyone MUST take your approach to how things should be? You are quite prepared to arrogantly dismiss the whole of our species' history of alternative methods of healing because you assume that the only model to be respected is the western medical model. Am I correct?
Now, I am not claiming it is ALL wrong, but that it is not all super-duper either and that because it is based on a mechanical understanding of the body and mind that there can be much that is missed, like the spiritual aspect to reality for example. So que you to say eg., 'show me evidence for spirit'---right?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz]
#15217937 - 10/13/11 07:02 AM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you want to talk mysticism or spirituality then you are in the wrong forum. How many times must this be explained to you? This is a debate forum where proofs of claims are required. You rarely provide anything but opinion. Are you incapable of this basic comprehension.
I've pointed this out dozens of times and your response is to put me on ignore.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: Icelander]
#15217951 - 10/13/11 07:09 AM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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icelander you realize that Hegel, the most influential philosopher in Western Civilization (arguably) believed in spirit and found it a cornerstone of his arguments. Talking about spirit and un-provable postulates absolutely has its place in rational discourse about philosophy.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: g00ru]
#15218059 - 10/13/11 07:56 AM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said: Do you understand that there is a left brain and a right brain approach to reality or do you insist everyone MUST take your approach to how things should be?
? I only asked about what you yourself said, man. This has nothing to do with my approach to "how things should be"- I simply asked you about the things you said (and pointed out that I answered the questions you've asked while you haven't done replied to mine).
No, I don't agree with the left-brain/right-brain stuff, and always figured it was mostly garbage based on huge assumptions from limited data, but I don't see what my feelings on that has to do with anything.
Quote:
You are quite prepared to arrogantly dismiss the whole of our species' history of alternative methods of healing because you assume that the only model to be respected is the western medical model. Am I correct?
No. Much of accepted western medicine comes from treatments and drugs dating back to antiquity.
Whether or not something is western or whatever has nothing to do with whether it works. (now that I've answered more of your questions, I'm sure you'll reciprocate and answer mine, right?)
Quote:
Now, I am not claiming it is ALL wrong, but that it is not all super-duper either and that because it is based on a mechanical understanding of the body and mind that there can be much that is missed, like the spiritual aspect to reality for example.
How do you back that up? Seems the medicine used in western societies is mostly a mix of tradition and scientifically-derived knowledge (or assumptions). If you testing a drug or a treatment, what does it matter whether the spirit is involved? If the drug works, does it matter why it works? It could be the spirit or your ancestors or the flying spaghetti monster (p.b.u.h.), but if it works, its used (ignoring politically verboten therapies).
Quote:
guruu said: icelander you realize that Hegel, the most influential philosopher in Western Civilization (arguably) believed in spirit and found it a cornerstone of his arguments. Talking about spirit and un-provable postulates absolutely has its place in rational discourse about philosophy.
Sure, but I bet icelander would agree with that. The stereotype is just that the mysticism-interested people here tend to get upset when they are asked "why" or aren't believed on faith, which I'd imagine is why icelander phrased his post that way. I agree, of course, that spirit and whatever may be philosophically discussed, it just doesn't seem to occur too often here in practice.
The problem here is zzripz is apparently using this forum to preach, and ask questions and challenge those he disagrees with, but gets upset and whines whenever he is asked a question. Nobody is saying he can't discuss that stuff here, they're saying that if he wants to be King and issue unquestionable edicts he needs to mosey on over somewhere with subjects willing to dutifully obey his decrees.
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zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: johnm214]
#15218121 - 10/13/11 08:16 AM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
No. Much of accepted western medicine comes from treatments and drugs dating back to antiquity.
...oh. would that include plants from forests?
Quote:
Whether or not something is western or whatever has nothing to do with whether it works. (now that I've answered more of your questions, I'm sure you'll reciprocate and answer mine, right?)
oh. do YOU respond to every question asked of you?
Quote:
How do you back that up? Seems the medicine used in western societies is mostly a mix of tradition and scientifically-derived knowledge (or assumptions). If you testing a drug or a treatment, what does it matter whether the spirit is involved? If the drug works, does it matter why it works? It could be the spirit or your ancestors or the flying spaghetti monster (p.b.u.h.), but if it works, its used (ignoring politically verboten therapies).
mix of tradition?? Thought it was based on medical science? What tradition you talking about? They 'test' drugs on animals don't they? Something I find very wrong, and evil. Many drugs just go after symptoms and not root causes--the spiritual meaning and roots of an illness, including the cultural causes of a dis-ease'--are ignored. It can be like a business which seeks to MAINTAIN disease so as to make a profit from it!
How come all of you 'sceptics' will demand to use the term 'flying spaghetti monster'?? Question: who was first 'sceptic' to say that?
'IF it 'works' it works' IS the mechanical model. It is treating people like chemical machines---there is no addressing deeper spiritual issues---what I said from the start!
Quote:
The problem here is zzripz is apparently using this forum to preach, and ask questions and challenge those he disagrees with, but gets upset and whines whenever he is asked a question. Nobody is saying he can't discuss that stuff here, they're saying that if he wants to be King and issue unquestionable edicts he needs to mosey on over somewhere with subjects willing to dutifully obey his decrees
Please do not talk ABOUT me mate. Like I ask again, do YOU ALWAYS respond to questions asked you? Do you NOT get upset? because your tone in most every post seems quite upset to me. Hardly any friendliness or even openmindedness--more akin to bullying. IMPOSING you view on others using a pseudo superior pretence of logical understanding. And errr I dont understand your last bit--not that I care to.
Edited by zzripz (10/13/11 08:26 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: zzripz] 1
#15218178 - 10/13/11 08:32 AM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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I posted this in another thread but it bears repeating here.
zzripz,
Without the process of making a statement and providing evidence for it if requested, all debates degenerate into schoolyard "DID TOO, did not, DID TOO, did not" noise an no progress is made.
Point of fact, this is a debate forum and the very first sentence of the rules says the following:
"This debate-oriented forum is for the discussion of philosophical ideas that can be backed up with some sort of thoughtful logic and reasoning"
If you can't provide the evidence or line of reasoning that lead to your assertion, then why are you posting here? You should post in the Pub or S&M where people can say anything they want and are under no obligation to substantiate it.
If you continue posting here, you need to get with the program or you won't be posting here any longer. I don't want the forum filled with noise from people saying "neener neener" whenever anyone asks them for substantiation.
John has repeatedly done you the courtesy of answering your questions. Answer his or stop posting here and take it to the S&M forum where substantiation of ones claims is not required.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: 14 Peruvian Shamans Murdered [Re: g00ru] 2
#15218216 - 10/13/11 08:40 AM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said: icelander you realize that Hegel, the most influential philosopher in Western Civilization (arguably) believed in spirit and found it a cornerstone of his arguments. Talking about spirit and un-provable postulates absolutely has its place in rational discourse about philosophy.
Since when am I seeing rational discourse from Zippy? Not.
Who's Hegel?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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