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InvisibletrendalM
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Does God want me to believe?
    #1519220 - 05/04/03 10:48 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Two questions for those who know:

One, does God want me to believe in him?

Two, does he understand me perfectly, how I "work"?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


Edited by trendal (05/04/03 01:49 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: God [Re: trendal]
    #1519234 - 05/04/03 10:56 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

no one "knows", they like to think they do though.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: God [Re: trendal]
    #1519370 - 05/04/03 12:17 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

"One, does God want me to believe in him?

Two, does he understand me perfectly, how I "work"? "
-----------------

I think the general concensus is that "God" wants you to be aware that there is more out there... To give you something to look forwrad to.

In the end... SEEING IS BELIEVING !


In terms of understanding... Simply looking at the fact that Existence goes beyond human understanding, to me anyways, means that all the rules and nuances involved in "human" is completely understood! - In impeccable detail !



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: God [Re: trendal]
    #1519402 - 05/04/03 12:34 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

"One, does God want me to believe in him?

Two, does he understand me perfectly, how I "work"?"

People tend to forget a very important #3: Does He exist?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisiblebert
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Re: God [Re: Strumpling]
    #1519458 - 05/04/03 01:03 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Bingo.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: God [Re: Strumpling]
    #1519576 - 05/04/03 01:48 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I can answer that (to myself, anyway) if i get answers to the first two questions, so there is no need for me to ask if he exists - no one can prove it to me.  :smirk: 

Edit: I should have said, I can come closer to an answer.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


Edited by trendal (05/04/03 03:17 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: God [Re: trendal]
    #1519602 - 05/04/03 02:04 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

is God a sentient being? does God think? does God think like we do? does God 'want' anything?


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: trendal]
    #1519628 - 05/04/03 02:20 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Deleted by admin


Edited by Enter (05/04/03 02:22 PM)


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: God [Re: trendal]
    #1519641 - 05/04/03 02:31 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

"there is no need for me to ask if he exists - no one can prove it to me."

No one can prove to you any answers to the other questions either.. heh I'll stay out


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1519667 - 05/04/03 02:46 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Is it possible, in your opinion, to "know" God, yet not believe in him?


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1519692 - 05/04/03 03:02 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Deleted by admin


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: trendal]
    #1519774 - 05/04/03 03:51 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

God is dead and noone cares. If there is a hell, I'll see you there. -NIN


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



Edited by Murex (05/04/03 03:52 PM)


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InvisibleSmack31
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Murex]
    #1519792 - 05/04/03 04:08 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

This thread is very interesting if you read it from the perspective
I just read it from... now, all of you stop talking about me! :grin:


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: World Spirit]
    #1519825 - 05/04/03 04:28 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think you can know God. God implies something so vast and infinite that there is no way that you can really 'know' God. Even the most spiritually connected, priests, monks, schizos, whatever, are interpreting something. But they themselves don't understand it. I think it's arrogant and ego satisfying to claim a connection to something so unconnectable. Whatever makes people feel better, though, right? People need a reason to live.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: trendal]
    #1519916 - 05/04/03 05:06 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

God is consciousness, creation, life. It exists in all things, we are all a part of it. Consciousness is evidence of God.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1519923 - 05/04/03 05:09 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Deleted by admin


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Anonymous

Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1520048 - 05/04/03 06:04 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Consciousness is evidence of God.

no, consciousness is the evidence of evolution.


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InvisibleTeragon
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1520376 - 05/04/03 08:30 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with Shroomism. Consciousness radiates through everything, living or not. Life is that consciousness trying to become aware of itself. God is that unifying factor, consciousness, the reason behind creation or the "creator" if you so please. My take on it anyways. :grin: 


--------------------
need that cash to feed them jones.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Teragon]
    #1520775 - 05/04/03 10:53 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I also agree with Shroomism.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Anonymous

Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: trendal]
    #1520895 - 05/04/03 11:33 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

1) God doesn't want everything. So no. Unless you want to believe in God. Then I would say that God does want you to believe in him.

2) YES


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: ]
    #1525473 - 05/06/03 06:55 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Consciousness is evidence of God.

no, consciousness is the evidence of evolution.




No, evolution is evidence of creation.


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1525495 - 05/06/03 07:03 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

No, evolution is evidence of creation.

or the combination of minerals and nucleic acids to form protobiants when the earths early atmosphere was conductive, leading to the first organisms, and subsequently evolution. that was all the "creation" involved.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: ]
    #1525500 - 05/06/03 07:05 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Oh, were you there?


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Anonymous

Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1525513 - 05/06/03 07:10 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

no, but evidence suggests it, it can also be recreated in lab experiments. i've yet to see a miniature god created with goggles and a bunsen burner.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: ]
    #1525517 - 05/06/03 07:11 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Evidence suggests that my soul is immortal and I have the same potential for Creation as the original Creator. Evidence also suggest that life is an endless cycle.


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Anonymous

Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1525531 - 05/06/03 07:17 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

my evidence...

http://www.physics.brown.edu/Studies/Demo/astro/demo/8c3010.htm

Evidence suggests that my soul is immortal and I have the same potential for Creation as the original Creator. Evidence also suggest that life is an endless cycle.

yours?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: ]
    #1525537 - 05/06/03 07:19 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Life Experience..something that cannot be created in a laborotory.

I could go digging for scientific evidence of immortality through soul life..but nahh.. we know what a waste of time that is, and how many endless circles it will go in.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: ]
    #1525539 - 05/06/03 07:20 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

That only shows that amino acids can be created.

I don't think they've managed to spontaneously produce life in the lab - ever.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: ]
    #1525542 - 05/06/03 07:20 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

"the combination of minerals and nucleic acids to form protobiants when the earths early atmosphere was conductive, leading to the first organisms, and subsequently evolution. that was all the "creation" involved."
-----------

You are very correct as to the scientific unfolding analogy of creation. But how do you think it happened like that? Hah ahaha aah haa ha ...... You think it was RANDOM? ... a COINCIDENCE?

It started somehow... It didn't all just get there by itself.

Evolution personifies a JOURNEY. Every journey has a BEGINNING and a REASON for being. The reason for undertaking the journey begins with the CREATION of a CONSCIOUS SPARK. Journeys tend to EVOLVE... the beginning is rarely like the end. Therefore, evolution is one of many pieces of evidence of creation.



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Anonymous

Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1525564 - 05/06/03 07:30 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

You think it was RANDOM?

yes.

a COINCIDENCE?

what is the coincidence?

Evolution personifies a JOURNEY.

evolution does not personify anything, it explains the struggle between organisms to survive.

The reason for undertaking the journey begins with the CREATION of a CONSCIOUS SPARK.

consciousness gives you awareness; awareness to run from a bear attacking you....it is powerful, because its all you have, the ego is powerful in its ability to perpetuate the desire to live, ....it even deceives you in believing it will continue after death.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: ]
    #1525615 - 05/06/03 07:57 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

"awareness to run from a bear attacking you...."
-----------------

That is reason. Consciousness yields in reason. Reason is not coincidental. If something does not support the concept of coincidence, then it is not random.

Evolution IS a journey. Beginning at one end and finishing on the other. Struggling organisms personifies the dance called: Survival of the Fittest. It begins with everyone, and ends with the strongest of the pack... as seen in nature.

Oh... maybe we can agree to disagree, but, I am of the opinion that it does, in fact, continue after death... There is no deception there.



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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InvisibleTeragon
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: trendal]
    #1525624 - 05/06/03 08:00 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

That only shows that amino acids can be created.

I don't think they've managed to spontaneously produce life in the lab - ever.



The first part of your statement is incorrect, Trendal, but the second part is true. As much as I hate to admit it, Looner is right about the lab experiments. They've successfully generated protobionts, which are cell-like structures that undergo some of the processes of life such as metabolism and they make use of primitive membranes form by liposomes, that induce osmotic swelling and changes in chemical composition from the external environment. Yet this is not living- living to me is now starting to mean: genetic code. All of Earth's life is coded for in DNA/RNA- where is that from? :grin:
 


--------------------
need that cash to feed them jones.


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Anonymous

Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Teragon]
    #1525635 - 05/06/03 08:06 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Yet this is not living- living to me is now starting to mean: genetic code. All of Earth's life is coded for in DNA/RNA- where is that from?

given a couple million years to undergo evolution and you have primitive one-celled organisms.


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1525646 - 05/06/03 08:09 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Deiymiyan, you seem to have very limited knowledge of evolution. Running from a bear is not only reason, it is instinct. Rabbits don't reason when they are chased by a fox. They're genetically coded to flee from danger. Also, evolution isn't survival of the 'strongest of the pack'. Far from it. Many times environmental conditions favor smaller, weaker species as long as they are best adapted to the environment.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Anonymous

Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1525648 - 05/06/03 08:10 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Reason is not coincidental. If something does not support the concept of coincidence, then it is not random.

i do not understand this...what is the "coincidence"?

Evolution IS a journey. Beginning at one end and finishing on the other. Struggling organisms personifies the dance called: Survival of the Fittest. It begins with everyone, and ends with the strongest of the pack... as seen in nature.

the journey to survive, exactly.

Oh... maybe we can agree to disagree, but, I am of the opinion that it does, in fact, continue after death... There is no deception there.

does it continue for any reason other than you want it too ? i know it leaves a funny taste in your mouth if you don't believe, but why base beliefs on feelings?



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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: bert]
    #1525677 - 05/06/03 08:21 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Does instinct not connect to a reason? Ie... to survive?

Fight or flight response... rabbits choose flight in the case of fox interaction... sure, I get it...

Did I say strongest? I'm pretty sure I said Survival of the fittest..as the name of the dance....

The ones with the dominant attributes are best suited for survival... I used the word strong in that case as dominant... does dominance not equate to a strenght? Pardon me.



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Invisiblebert
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1525702 - 05/06/03 08:27 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, you did say it "ends with the strongest of the pack'. Also, you are mixing up two definitions for the word 'reason'. First you used it as 'reason', as in the ability to deduce. Now you are using 'reason', as in a meaning for something. "...reason? Ie...to survive." Unless you meant reason as in the second case, the first time. In which case you should say 'a reason', and not just 'reason'.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: ]
    #1525766 - 05/06/03 08:44 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

You:  "i do not understand this...what is the "coincidence"? "
---------------

Me:      That is what I was asking. What I mean by that...  Do you think that creation of the life and things happened, by accident / without reason / by luck / coincidently (aaakkk... sorry for using a word in the question as part of the answer...  I'm kinda hoping that you get it... if not... can someone help me explain coincidence in English?) ?

Rather than using the word coincidence which, as far as english as I understand, means an occurence to which you can't establish a link.

I much prefer that image that comes to my mind when I hear the word synchronisity.
----------------

Me:  "[ I am ]....of the opinion that it does, in fact, continue after death... There is no deception there.

You:    does it continue for any reason other than you want it too ? i know it leaves a funny taste in your mouth if you don't believe, but why base beliefs on feelings?
-----------------

Me:  The fact that I want it to continue is nicely supported by the property of energy, in terms of, not being destroyed... simply converted...  We seem to be made of energy...  It seems logical to me that this life is not the end of the road.

And why base beliefs on feelings?  Well...  It's funny, I once used to laugh at a teacher who said: "You have to learn how to get in tune/touch with your feelings..."    ... I used to think he was "flakey"...even though I thought he was a great person!

Let me ask you this....  If you no longer had the use of your eyes to see, and you want to get around to travel, "feeling" your way is the next reasonable method. I believe that incorporating and dealing with the concept of feelings is the way to go...  in terms of the next logical step- maybe I'm alone on that...  but I do not have a problem with that should it be the case.

:grin:

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: bert]
    #1525771 - 05/06/03 08:45 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

You gotta love english....    :grin: 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1525786 - 05/06/03 08:49 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Here... let me further complicate it for you.....

There is a reason in reason !!!!  :grin:

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1525824 - 05/06/03 08:56 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Rocks are hard, water is soft. Coincidence?


I think not!


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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OfflineGorian
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1525825 - 05/06/03 08:56 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Oh, were you there? 



Oh , Shrooism my question is, were you there?
you just got OWNED :smile: 


--------------------


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1525866 - 05/06/03 09:05 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

"Rocks are hard, water is soft. Coincidence?


I think not!"
---------------

Lol...  That's right... It's not a coincidence....  ha haha ....  There's reason for that!  :grin:  .Eh Bert? heh heh, you're gonna blow a gasket... heh heh....

.. but land on water the wrong way, and its as hard as cement... Then it becomes a relative issue.

 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Gorian]
    #1525869 - 05/06/03 09:05 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, I was. Spirit is quite old you see..


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Teragon]
    #1525877 - 05/06/03 09:06 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I stand corrected  :smirk:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1525884 - 05/06/03 09:07 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Nice one!  :cool:

"Spirit is quite old you see.."



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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



Edited by Deiymiyan (05/06/03 09:09 PM)


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InvisibleTeragon
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1530456 - 05/08/03 10:41 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

To all those debating: As for arguing divine presence, the creation of life is not a good reference point and only convolutes your argument with rather troubling scientific evidence. Yet do not fear science for it truly does explain everything perfectly- if it doesn't make sense then we are most likely missing a piece of the whole. Just take a look at the world around you and your physical presence- the vast expanses of the universe with this abundance of matter is overwhelming. Where did all of this come from? Why is it here? It is unquestionable that there is something behind all of this- something doesn't come from nothing. :grin: 


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need that cash to feed them jones.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Teragon]
    #1530547 - 05/08/03 11:23 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Logic and Physics:

1) Causality states that everything has a cause. Our physical universe runs on this principle - cause preceeds effect.

2) The universe had to be created at some point, because it is not static in nature. Also, the Laws of Thermodynamics (specifically that relating to entropy) state that entropy (or DISorder) is always increasing in a closed system - therefore our Universe had to come into existence at some specific point in the past. If it has been in existence forever then entropy would long ago have ruled over order (meaning no stars, no life).

3) If the Universe came into existence at some point in the past, Causality states that there MUST have been a cause (???) preceeding the effect (Creation).

Speculating on exactly what the cause was is not something I will do, because I don't have all the information.

BUT...I think this may prove that something exists outside of our universe, and this "something" was responsible for the Creation of the universe.

Call it God if you want. Maybe it's just a scientist in a lab somewhere. I don't know.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleTeragon
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: trendal]
    #1530654 - 05/08/03 12:04 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Very well said. I agree with the majority of that but have one question pertaining to your second statement-

Is the universe truly a closed system and if so how do you know? We have yet to find a boundary/outside for the universe, even though it is seemingly possible. Yet is it not also possible that the universe is inifinitely large or inifinitely small or both? They're is too much physics we don't know/understand to make assumptions about the nature of the universe. The laws that we currently make use of, such as gravity, do not coinincide with many other aspects of universal law.

Another question- ever had a matterless experience? Or one were you had no feel/touch/smell, etc. ? What do you make of those?

One thing I wholeheartedly believe in is your last statement. "I don't know" or in this case: "We don't know." :smirk: 


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Teragon]
    #1530819 - 05/08/03 01:00 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Well this is my personal view - constructed from 22 years of scientific inquiry  :smirk:

(note that when i talk of "dimension" here, i am refering purely to the "spatial" dimensions - the fourth dimension in our universe is of course Time but that can be left out for the sake of simplicity here)

The universe is, in shape, a 3-dimensional space curved in 4-dimensions. Impossible to picture, so I'll move down to 2 and 3 dimentions for an example.

Imagine a 2-dimensional "space". A piece of paper, for example. The edges of the paper would be the "end" of the universe, for any 2-d creatures living here.

Now take the 2-d universe and "warp" it in 3-dimensions so that it becomes a hollow sphere - like a soap bubble. Now the "skin" of your 3-d bubble, which is really a 2-d plain warped in 3-d, is still the only part of the universe. Any 2-d creature living on the "skin" would only know of 2 dimensions - not the third. They would have no idea that there is a "center" to their universe, because there isn't one. There is no center to the skin of a soap bubble, only a center of the bubble itself which is a shape that is impossible in the 2-d universe.

So if one of the 2-d creatures decided to start moving in a straight line...what happens? He doesn't find an "end" to the universe at all - he ends up right back where he left off!

Now extrude this into 3 spatial dimensions (our universe). There's no way I know of to visuallize this...but I think our universe is the 3-d "skin" of a 4-f "bubble".

There is no end, no edge, and no center to the universe. Each and every point in the universe could arbitrarily be considered the "center".

So this is why I believe the universe is a closed system :-)

What is outside is irrelivent to us mere 3-d beings  :smirk:


As to the second question...yes I have had a "matterless" experience. A few times, actually, on high doses of Salvia. With no senses to build a Reality from it's a little strange (and undescribable). 


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: trendal]
    #1530869 - 05/08/03 01:18 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

trendal !!!

What you've written there, is a very nice train of thought !!!!

:grin: 


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1530895 - 05/08/03 01:24 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I would include to the bubble analogy, that not only is there a continuous layer acting like a skin.... but there are volumetric properties that extend within the bubble... properties which are of mostly "empty" space.

The 4-D affects that very volume.

You have an understanding of spacial dimensionnal concept.



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: ]
    #1531192 - 05/08/03 02:49 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

yahweh (the god refered to in the bible) wants you to believe in him and that jesus was his only son. Now, if you don't belive in that, you burn in hell. You aren't judged on anything but your belief in god. To facilitate our beleiving in him, god has done... well.... ok ... nothing.


Jr


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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InvisibleTeragon
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: trendal]
    #1531674 - 05/08/03 05:13 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, I know what you speak of. I've read Hyperspace as it seems you have...or maybe Flatland? I've also heard the bubble analogy before (maybe from you?) and I agree with everything you said in that last post, yet look at the end.

Quote:

There is no end, no edge, and no center to the universe. Each and every point in the universe could arbitrarily be considered the "center".

So this is why I believe the universe is a closed system :-)




The first sentence leads me to believe that the universe is infinite in everyway, like I mused about before. How does this make it a closed system? It seems to me there are no limits, how can you set a value on something like that?

What you said before about applying that to our 3-d world is true...but also think about it going up to like 10 or 11 dimensions :shocked:. Atleast thats what current theory suggests (I'm sure you familiar with superstring). Not quite sure how you can set a value on the number of dimensions; haven't seen the math to prove it yet.

Out of curiousity, what do you make of density theory? I'm starting to think they are one in the same, just like synonymous words that look totally different. I couldn't find a word to make that last description...ironic how I used a literary example...sorry I'm mumbling- I hate English. :grin: 


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need that cash to feed them jones.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: trendal]
    #1531773 - 05/08/03 05:43 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Imagine a 2-dimensional "space". A piece of paper, for example. The edges of the paper would be the "end" of the universe, for any 2-d creatures living here.

Now take the 2-d universe and "warp" it in 3-dimensions so that it becomes a hollow sphere - like a soap bubble




Curved space is very cool. Neat things happen, like the sum of the angles of a triangle is not 180 degrees; the circumference of a circle devided by 2pi is not equal to the radius; walking a fixed distance and turning 90 degrees four times does not end up creating a closed square; etc... Chapter six of the "Six not-so-easy Pieces" by Richard Feynman is a great read for this.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Does God want me to believe? [Re: Teragon]
    #1533976 - 05/09/03 08:06 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Yes I've read Hyperspace but not Flatland yet  :smirk:

I also read an excellent book called The Elegant Universe, by Brian Greene. Good read.

By saying that there is no edge, boundary, or center to the universe, I am not saying that it is infinite. On the contrary, I believe that there is a measurable size to our universe - although it is beyond me in terms of figuring out that size  :smirk:

Each point is the "center" because at each and EVERY point in the "bubble" universe, the "other side" of the universe (other side of the bubble) is exactly the same distance away.

As for scaling up to 10 or 11 dimensions, like Superstring does, the "extra" dimensions have curled up smaller than the Plank Length - which is the theoretical limit to physical measurement in our universe. Nothing smaller than a single string can be measured (because you USE strings to do the measuring). So those dimensions are, from our 3-d point of view, too small to make a difference.


I am a newcomer to this density idea.

However I find it remarkably strange that "density" deals with vibrational energy - and string theory states that ALL matter AND energy is represented by the vibrational mode of a tiny loop of "string".

They do, in a way, seem synonymous  :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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