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 Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,334
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 Charity 
#15184324 - 10/05/11 11:25 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Interesting quote I found: "Charity should always be provided voluntarily, that way it won't be confused with slavery."
Thoughts?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell 
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Re: Charity [Re: Rahz]
#15184344 - 10/05/11 11:31 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Is this do with tv ads for different charities, trying to project a feeling of responsibility and basically guilt onto the viewer, in order to garner a donation ?
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,334
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It's about opposition to government mandated welfare.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Charity [Re: Rahz]
#15184507 - 10/06/11 12:20 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Reminds me of restaurants requiring an 18% 'gratuity' which by defintion is voluntary.
Doublespeak FTW.
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 Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Re: Charity [Re: Rahz]
#15185210 - 10/06/11 07:32 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Never heard welfare or social security called 'charity'.
I think its just a power struggle.
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,334
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Re: Charity [Re: Freedom]
#15185750 - 10/06/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Then it must be slavery?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Kickle
Wanderer
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Re: Charity [Re: Rahz]
#15186034 - 10/06/11 11:26 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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I agree with the sentiment that charity that isn't voluntary will never be as good as charity that is voluntary. But I wouldn't call welfare slavery. But I do again agree with the sentiment that people who are required to pay into welfare without feeling they should be required to sometimes do confuse this with being in slavery.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Re: Charity [Re: Rahz]
#15188338 - 10/06/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Then it must be slavery?
When has the individual ever been free?
If you don't do what the tribe wants you will always be punished, whether that is to abide by the mores, follow the customs, plant the crops, manage the serfs or give some of your income to others or anything else.
Calling taxation, or the small fraction of taxation that goes to welfare 'slavery' is to redifine the word slavery:
Quote:
Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property and are forced to work. Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand compensation. Conditions that can be considered slavery include debt bondage, indentured servitude, serfdom, domestic servants kept in captivity, adoption in which children are effectively forced to work as slaves, child soldiers, and forced marriage.
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Rahz
Alive Again
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Posts: 9,334
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Re: Charity [Re: Kickle]
#15189038 - 10/06/11 09:19 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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If the charity isn't voluntary, can you explain how it isn't slavery?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Kickle
Wanderer
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Re: Charity [Re: Rahz]
#15189053 - 10/06/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Are taxes slavery? It goes back to the public 
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Charity [Re: Kickle]
#15189123 - 10/06/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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When I was born, nor later in life, I never agreed to follow any laws nor pay any taxes. It is all about force and coercion.
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,334
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Re: Charity [Re: Kickle]
#15189160 - 10/06/11 09:44 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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If the people give consent to be taxed, then it is not slavery. If you sign up, you've gotta pay your dues, but I don't think it's that cut and dry. As long as it's possible to opt out (which it currently is), then it doesn't seem to fit any true definition of slavery. But most people aren't even aware they have a choice, except that they might 'move to Canada' or something.
But the general direction doesn't seem to be moving towards more liberty or choice. There is also the issue of dependency (the other side of the equation), and the idea of manufactured consent. I think that it wouldn't take much for governments to begin declaring non-contractual obligations, which would in fact be slavery.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Kickle
Wanderer
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Last seen: 2 days, 11 hours
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In a way we're all pigeon holed by life and have to choose the most comfortable way of getting along we can.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,334
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Re: Charity [Re: Kickle]
#15189216 - 10/06/11 09:52 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Perhaps that is true. Even at this moment I somehow don't feel free to express all of my views on the subject. I've even considered wiping 'Rahz' out recently.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Kickle
Wanderer
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Re: Charity [Re: Rahz]
#15189225 - 10/06/11 09:54 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Re: Charity [Re: Rahz]
#15189495 - 10/06/11 10:59 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
If the charity isn't voluntary, can you explain how it isn't slavery?
because no one owns you and no one is forcing you to work. They are taking a percentage of your earnings so if you want a pejorative term, use theft.
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,334
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Re: Charity [Re: Freedom]
#15189690 - 10/06/11 11:55 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think a more comprehensive definition is: "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence". I don't think it's as cut and dry as forced labor, but your point is understood.
It could be argued that no one has ever truly been a slave, or that everyone is a slave in some manner.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Zanthius
Mean Alien
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
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Re: Charity [Re: Rahz]
#15189959 - 10/07/11 01:53 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
I think a more comprehensive definition is: "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence". I don't think it's as cut and dry as forced labor, but your point is understood.
It could be argued that no one has ever truly been a slave, or that everyone is a slave in some manner.
In economic terms, of course poor people are subjected to much more slavery than rich people. If you are very rich and have a lot of money in the bank, you don't even need to work. You can just live on the interest rate the banks pay you. On the other hand, if you are very poor and have a huge mortgage loan you must work a lot in order to be able to pay the interest rate to the bank.
What is so bad about a progressive tax system? As it is much more difficult to be poor than to be rich ( because of the interest rate ), I think it is quite fair that rich people pay a bit more in taxes. It is not like it matters so much to you to pay a little bit more in taxes if you earn a lot. Rich people have it easy anyhow.
Edited by Zanthius (10/07/11 06:36 AM)
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Re: Charity [Re: Rahz]
#15190415 - 10/07/11 07:10 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
I think a more comprehensive definition is: "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence". I don't think it's as cut and dry as forced labor, but your point is understood.
It could be argued that no one has ever truly been a slave, or that everyone is a slave in some manner.
Why do you focus on welfare though? Our freedom is limited in a myriad of ways. Our society requires so many things from us, many which we may disagree with. It has always been this way, and seems society could not function without the individuals being subservient to some degree.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Quote:
Zanthius said:
If you are very rich and have a lot of money in the bank, you don't even need to work. You can just live on the interest rate the banks pay you. On the other hand, if you are very poor and have a huge mortgage loan you must work a lot in order to be able to pay the interest rate to the bank.
This is why I see it as a power struggle.
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Darwin23
INFJ
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Re: Charity [Re: Freedom]
#15192128 - 10/07/11 03:07 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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I certainly wouldn't say slavery. A slave cannot escape. If someone feels oppressed by the tax laws, they can leave to a place where these tax laws don't exist, such as Somalia or Chad.
I'd also like to point out that charity can exist in forms other than welfare. Police protection and public roads are also a form of charity for the individuals who pay no taxes.
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Take a look at my journal
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