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Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen.
    #15176739 - 10/04/11 01:25 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

How do you guys feel about this? I'm kinda in the middle, and as I learn more about this situation the better I can have an opinion, and truly express how I feel about it. For those of you who do not know, last week we carried out a drone strike in Yemen killing a few of Al-Qaidas upper echelon honchos. Among them however was an American citizen, born in the states named Anwar Al-Awlaki, he was by all means considered a terrorist, he was in charge of Al-Qaidas propaganda um 'division' I guses one could say. This may seem all mundane and run of the mill but, this seems to have set a new precedent, we have now witnessed Obama ordering the assassination of an American citizen, without due process, or charging him, or arresting him. Sure he was a terrorist by any means, but does this gives us the right to outright murder him in another country? Where do we draw the line?  Who defines who's acceptable to murder and who's not? Some have called for Impeaching Obama, some have said it was a glorious day and shines a light on our ability to execute covert missions and kill terrorists. I will post a few articles, hopefully getting a few different perspectives and bias on this issue.

Quote:

Oct 04 2011
Al Awlaki Assasination Sets Dangerous Precedent for US Citizens

The assassination by a US drone strike of al-Qaeda leader, Anwar al-Awlaki, has reignited debate over the legality of targeted executions. Al Awlaki, who was a US citizen, was killed in Yemen on Friday, about 90 miles east of the capital Sanaa, reportedly while getting into a car surrounded by five other people. Al Awlaki has long been an enemy of the US government, blamed for radicalizing American Muslims through his prolific use of You Tube and other internet outlets. Most notably he was blamed for influencing the military doctor who committed the 2009 Fort Hood shooting rampage. In 2010 the ACLU and the Center for Constitutional Rights sued the US Treasury, and later lost, for freezing Al Awlaki’s assets and placing him on a hit list. The organizations claimed it was unconstitutional to order lethal force against a US citizen in a foreign country without an attempt to capture him alive and provide a trial in an court of law. Before his death, government officials called the cleric a, “recruiter and motivator” for al-Qaeda. On Friday President Obama hailed Al Awlaki’s death as a “significant milestone,” and “a major blow to al-Qaeda’s most active operational affiliate.” However on the same day a USA Today article quoted a terrorism analyst who predicted that al-Qaeda “[w]ill be just as capable the day after his death than before. He’s not particularly high up the hierarchy.” Writing for the Progressive Magazine Matthew Rothschild not only called the assassination unconstitutional, but also, “[a] new low, and terrible precedent, for the abuse of Presidential powers.”
www.progressive.org.

Read Rothschild’s article about Al Awlaki here: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/10/01-9




Quote:


Ron Paul Suggests Anwar al-Awlaki Killing ‘Impeachable’ Offense For Obama
By Andrew Belonsky Monday, October 03, 2011


Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul said today that President Obama could face impeachment for the killing of American-born al-Qaeda terrorist Anwar al-Awlaki.

Almost all of the Republican presidential candidates have offered President Obama’s administration praise for the killing last week of American-born al-Qaeda operate Anwar al-Awlaki, leader of external operations for al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.

Embattled Texas Gov. Rick Perry said the killing, ordered by Obama, was a “serious setback” for the terrorist organization, while Michele Bachmann said of the fatal drone strike, “The United States military and our intelligence community have demonstrated again why they are the best in the world.”

Mitt Romney went a bit further, specifically congratulating the president himself, “I commend the President, the members of the intelligence community, our service members, and our allies for their continued efforts to keep Americans safe.”

But not all of the GOP’s White House hopefuls are so keen to celebrate al-Awlaki’s death: libertarian-leaning Rep. Ron Paul joined the ACLU and other liberal organizations in blasting the attack.

“We cannot allow the War on Terror to diminish our steadfast adherence to the notion of due process for American citizens,” he said last week. “The protections under the Constitution for those accused of crimes do not just apply to people we like — they apply to everyone, including a terrorist like al-Awlaki. It is a question of due process for American citizens.”

And Paul kept up this argument during a campaign stop in New Hampshire, where an audience member asked whether the assassination warranted impeachment proceedings. “I think the impeachment process would be possible,” Paul replied. “I put responsibility on the president because this is obviously a step in the wrong direction. We have just totally disrespected the Constitution.”

While Paul’s answer may please his core ideological base, Dan Hirschhorn points out that the congressman’s remarks “once again put Paul at odds with his Republican rivals over foreign policy and the war on terror…”

That’s especially true because the Republican base has proven itself to be absolutely, positively bloodthirsty.




Quote:


Killing of U.S. citizen merits greater scrutiny
October 03, 2011

I am writing to express my anger at The Sun's coverage of the CIA assassination of U.S. citizen Anwar al-Awlaki.

Frequently, Mr. Awlaki has been described as a "terrorist," but how do we know that to actually be the case? We don't. All we have are the Obama administration's unproven assertions since they forbade any and all judicial involvement. That is not how we run our affairs in the United States. Or, at least once upon a time it wasn't.

President Barack Obama appointed himself judge, jury and executioner of a U.S. citizen. That's an outrage of the first rank. In a single stroke, he has committed a grievous crime against both Mr. Awlaki and the Constitution. (The Fifth Amendment guarantees the right not to be deprived of life without due process.)

To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Obama's lawless, tyrannical — and impeachable — act of usurpation and violence is unprecedented. This fact is easily the most newsworthy aspect of the entire story. That it's not been mentioned is a journalistic disgrace.

Daniel Fleisher, Baltimore




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InvisibleGotlib
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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: snoot]
    #15176758 - 10/04/11 01:28 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

If you happen to be in Yemen dealing with terrorists when a bomb drops it's your problem... won't loose any sleep over this.

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Offlinesnoot
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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: Gotlib]
    #15176865 - 10/04/11 01:55 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Butt-Head said:
If you happen to be in Yemen dealing with terrorists when a bomb drops it's your problem... won't loose any sleep over this.




well except for the fact that he was an American citizen, and was ordered to be assassinated, without any sort of due process. It sets a new precedent, I don't believe that has ever happened before.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: snoot]
    #15176937 - 10/04/11 02:13 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

He joined an organization that declared and prosecuted war on America and was an active and vocal participant.  As much as I would like to see them there for other reasons there are no lawyers on the battlefield.  Bye bye.  Did I mention that L. Ron is a dumb cunt yet today?


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Offlinesnoot
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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15176991 - 10/04/11 02:25 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
He joined an organization that declared and prosecuted war on America and was an active and vocal participant.  As much as I would like to see them there for other reasons there are no lawyers on the battlefield.  Bye bye.  Did I mention that L. Ron is a dumb cunt yet today?




yeah I dont agree with what Ron was saying, but I just find it fascinating that this has happened. We've had domestic terrorists before eh? So so long as they are out of the country and belong to a organization that constitutes a threat, its ok to assassinate them?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: snoot]
    #15177059 - 10/04/11 03:04 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

snoot said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
He joined an organization that declared and prosecuted war on America and was an active and vocal participant.  As much as I would like to see them there for other reasons there are no lawyers on the battlefield.  Bye bye.  Did I mention that L. Ron is a dumb cunt yet today?




yeah I dont agree with what Ron was saying, but I just find it fascinating that this has happened. We've had domestic terrorists before eh? So so long as they are out of the country and belong to a organization that constitutes a threat, its ok to assassinate them?



I think al Qaeda is more than "an organization that constitutes a threat."  They have without any ambiguity at all declared themselves to be "at war" with the US and has acted in accordance with that declaration.  He joined them willingly and was no longer a "domestic" actor since he was in Yemen.  Would I feel the same if he had joined, say, a Mexican drug cartel?  No.


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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15177389 - 10/04/11 05:28 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

NO zappa, cuz if he joined a mexican drug cartel we would've given him 2,000 assault rifles to take over, duhhh.

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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: memes]
    #15177479 - 10/04/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

:grin:


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OfflineAsAboveSoBelow
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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: memes]
    #15177480 - 10/04/11 05:43 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

why was he meeting at the pentagon in the months after 9/11?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/21/national/main6978200.shtml


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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: AsAboveSoBelow]
    #15177604 - 10/04/11 06:09 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

CIA agent turned rogue :tinfoil:

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: AsAboveSoBelow]
    #15178246 - 10/04/11 08:17 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

AsAboveSoBelow said:
why was he meeting at the pentagon in the months after 9/11?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/21/national/main6978200.shtml




From the link you posted...
Quote:

Awlaki was invited as "...part of an informal outreach program" in which officials sought contact "...with leading members of the Muslim community," the official said. At that time, Awlaki was widely viewed as a "moderate" imam at a mosque in Northern Virginia.

At the same time, the FBI was also interviewing Awlaki about his contacts with three of the 9/11 attackers - Nawaf al-Hazmi, Khalid al Midhar and Hani Hanjour - who were all part of the crew of five that hijacked the American Airlines jet that hit the Pentagon.




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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: Seuss]
    #15178453 - 10/04/11 08:58 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Depends on his involvement. If he has helped in any way to coordinate attacks on US soldiers, it's treason, and the punishment for treason has always been death.

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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: PatrickKn]
    #15178651 - 10/04/11 09:31 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PatrickKn said:
Depends on his involvement. If he has helped in any way to coordinate attacks on US soldiers, it's treason, and the punishment for treason has always been death.




but would he need to be tried in a court? and executed? Not killed in a foreign country via a missile strike. It just seems odd to me, if he wasn't Muslim, would've things gone down differently? This surely can't be the first time a citizen has gone and done something like this, without being murdered in a foreign country.


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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: snoot]
    #15179300 - 10/04/11 11:23 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I don't have a problem with this per se, but I do think it would be advisable to implement some sort of protection against misuse of this power beyond the limited power of impeachment/prosecution.

I don't see the killing of a US citizen as all that signifigant, the government has always had that power.  My only concern is that the targets be sufficient current threats, that the power not be used for punishment or revenge, and that their be no reasonable alternative to killing them.  Basically the same rules as always apply when the military is going to kill someone, only in this case, the greater time for contemplation available would merit some review.

I would think some kind of hearing and impartial review would be helpful when possible, such as in FISA Court, for example.  In this case I think it wouldn't have even prejudiced the US's case that much to allow him to be represented in the deliberations.

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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: snoot]
    #15180411 - 10/05/11 08:52 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

snoot said:
Quote:

PatrickKn said:
Depends on his involvement. If he has helped in any way to coordinate attacks on US soldiers, it's treason, and the punishment for treason has always been death.




but would he need to be tried in a court? and executed? Not killed in a foreign country via a missile strike. It just seems odd to me, if he wasn't Muslim, would've things gone down differently? This surely can't be the first time a citizen has gone and done something like this, without being murdered in a foreign country.



We do not infest the battlefield with lawyers.  Which is in some ways unfortunate but not for this reason.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: johnm214]
    #15180509 - 10/05/11 09:29 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

While in this case,
Quote:

johnm214 said:
I don't have a problem with this per se, but I do think it would be advisable to implement some sort of protection against misuse of this power beyond the limited power of impeachment/prosecution.





Agreed.  Taking someone's life is an irreparable harm not remedied by having their family sue the government after the fact.  Due process exists to protect the innocent from the government--not necessarily to give guilty people a chance to lessen their punishment--and by sanctioning targeted executions without due process, we are handing the government a tool that they can use against anyone. 

Quote:


I don't see the killing of a US citizen as all that signifigant, the government has always had that power.  My only concern is that the targets be sufficient current threats, that the power not be used for punishment or revenge, and that their be no reasonable alternative to killing them. 




Right, and without some kind of due process, there is no systematic mechanism in place to prevent those abuses from happening.  The only recourse is an after the fact reprimand of some sort which is unlikely to even be substantially punitive.  The bigger worry isn't even a deliberate abuse as much as cases of mistaken identity or mistaken facts which, without a trial of some sort, could conceivably lead to myself (for example) being executed while on vacation in the Middle East.  Again, this is why due process is such an integral part of our legal system.

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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #15180590 - 10/05/11 09:55 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Another issue is how the US responds if a foreign citizen is assassinated by a foreign government on US soil.  In the past, the US could stand on the moral high ground, but no more.  Now other countries can point to the US and say, "But you do it too, so why not us?"


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: Seuss]
    #15180646 - 10/05/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I suspect that a.  it has already been done and b.  that we have a functioning system of law that includes extradition, something that does not exist in Yemen.


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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15184371 - 10/05/11 11:38 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

zappa would be right. this guy would be an enemy combatant, BUT we haven't actually DECLARED war so he is not an enemy combatant. hes an american citizen. he should have been captured, tried, executed. if you simply follow the constitution this is common sense. american citizens get due process. the fucking constitution says it. if we WOULD HAVE FOLLWED THE CONSTITUTION IN THE FIRST PLACE and DECLARED WAR than he wouldn't have to be tried.

im not saying this guy shouldn't have been killed, all Im saying is the president has NO RIGHT to make executive order to assassinate an american citizen and THEN NOT EVEN PROVIDE EVIDENCE ABOUT IT.

'when the president can kill whoever he wants hes not a president anymore hes a king'

but zappa loves those..

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Re: Al-Awlaki - The assassination of an American Citizen. [Re: PatrickKn]
    #15184382 - 10/05/11 11:41 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PatrickKn said:
Depends on his involvement. If he has helped in any way to coordinate attacks on US soldiers, it's treason, and the punishment for treason has always been death.




you fail to understand nobody is saying he shouldn't have been killed. the point is Obama used an executive order to assassinate an american citizen without due process and that violates the constitituion. end of story. this CANT be argued against. there IS 5th amendment. he was an american citizen. we have not declared war so he is not an enemy combatant.

he should have been captured and tried and punished for treason

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