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Offlinecarnage11
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Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics?
    #15162396 - 10/01/11 01:06 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Here's a story:

My first grow was from a GT syringe bought from a Shroomery sponsor. Using PFtek, I knocked up 5 half pint jars. 90% into colonization, the mycelium starts to pin inside the jars. After about a week of this, I'm forced to birth the jars, without giving them the full week for consolidation. The first flush was nice for my first grow I guess, but I think it could have been better.  The pinning inside the jars was a headache.

Fast forward to my second and third grows.  Aussie syringe from the same vendor. The jars colonize FAST, a week is given for consolidation. The jars are birthed and flush several times beautifully.

Fast forward to my fourth grow. A print was taken from one of the bigger fruits from the GT syringe.  This print was stored in foil and double baggied in a shoe box. Re-hydrated in a new syringe and used to knock up 3 jars and an LC. The jars colonize fast, but they are now about 90% and are starting to pin in the jars!

Now for my question....what the hell causes these particular GTs to pin before they are done colonizing? Could it be genetics? I don't believe it has anything to do with my methods because the Aussie strain seemed to go without a hitch. 

Any and all help is appreciated.  Thanks.


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Offlinecarnage11
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: carnage11]
    #15163741 - 10/01/11 06:28 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I hate bumping my own thread, but I was really hoping someone could clear this up for me.  Is there something I could have done wrong and don't realize? I never thought invitro pinning was caused by genetics.

My understanding was that the mycelium consumes the available nutrients and once those were used up, then it would start pinning. Why does this particular strain invitro pin before the substrate has been fully consumed?


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OfflineHoneydew
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: carnage11]
    #15163975 - 10/01/11 07:22 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

very strange, wish i could help, mainly posting because i want to see how this turns out


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OfflineJaffyJaffar
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: Honeydew]
    #15164123 - 10/01/11 07:50 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

All I know is that it's called in vitro and I had two good sized pins on one of my jars...lot of people here say to let consolidate longer to get in vitro pins

Could be that the middle of your substrate was colonized first and worked it's way out to the edge, as opposed to the other way around....so it might seem like it's not colonized but probably more colonized than starting from the edge and working it's way in

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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: JaffyJaffar]
    #15164408 - 10/01/11 09:05 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The three most common factors, to my knowledge, are using tall half pints, packing the sub too tight, or bacterial infections.


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Offlinecarnage11
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: Fungus_monk]
    #15164585 - 10/01/11 09:52 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It's just bizarre because I do it the same way every time and each time I've gotten invitro pins with the GT syringe.  Maybe it's just a coincidence. The Aussie syringe was used on two separate occasions and turned out beautifully.  I will say that the Aussie's seemed to colonize a lot faster then the GTs.  Maybe that has something to do with it.

@Fungus_monk -  I did use the tall half pints I believe. Maybe it's time to switch it up.  Well I might be crumbling these cakes to 50/50 this time anyways, so all is not lost yet.


edit:  Well I just stumbled on a thread where RR says that light is a pinning trigger.  I thought that was the case, but then was told I was wrong a while ago. It would make sense though, since with my first grow I was looking at the jars all the time, and then with this last grow I've just left them out in the open and not closed up in a box.  Now, I'm starting to think it was the light all along.


--------------------
You're breathing so I guess you're still alive
Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise.


Edited by carnage11 (10/01/11 10:22 PM)

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Offlineblackout
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: carnage11]
    #15165244 - 10/02/11 02:56 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It is both factors light and strain. Some people grow invitro on purpose, its a stealthy tek, low maintenance, not need for misting etc. It is very well known/accepted that some strains of cubes do better than others pinning invitro. They advise to light from the very start to induce pins ASAP

In a threads asking for the best invitro strains
Quote:

I've had gret success with B+, GT, and SA growing invitro.



Quote:

Pretty much any cubensis strain  will do well invitro--PF  Classic, Amazon, Golden Teacher, South American, Ecuadorian, Hillbilly, B+, etc




You say you were "forced" to birth the jars, but I bet you could have left them alone, then the shroom would have slowly matured inside the jar. Its not pretty but it works.






I am very surprised more do not grow like this.

Edited by blackout (10/02/11 03:04 AM)

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Offlinecarnage11
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: blackout]
    #15166509 - 10/02/11 11:34 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It's just such a pain in the ass getting them out of my glass jars.  Those jars there are plastic, which would be easier to bend and shape to get the fruits out.  So I guess from now on, I will keep my jars in darkness, until they are ready to be birthed.


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You're breathing so I guess you're still alive
Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise.


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Offlinetrophycase
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: blackout]
    #15166563 - 10/02/11 11:44 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
It is both factors light and strain. Some people grow invitro on purpose, its a stealthy tek, low maintenance, not need for misting etc. It is very well known/accepted that some strains of cubes do better than others pinning invitro. They advise to light from the very start to induce pins ASAP

In a threads asking for the best invitro strains
Quote:

I've had gret success with B+, GT, and SA growing invitro.



Quote:

Pretty much any cubensis strain  will do well invitro--PF  Classic, Amazon, Golden Teacher, South American, Ecuadorian, Hillbilly, B+, etc




You say you were "forced" to birth the jars, but I bet you could have left them alone, then the shroom would have slowly matured inside the jar. Its not pretty but it works.






I am very surprised more do not grow like this.




Do you get a pretty average weight growing invitro like this? And how do you prepare the plastic containers?


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OfflineFuckMeRunnin
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: trophycase]
    #15166829 - 10/02/11 12:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I would say no you don't get as good of a flush. I let a test brf cake in its jar and forgot about it. I came back to find the mushrooms matured in the jars. It's good for people who don't have the room for fruiting. So for stealth grows, I would recommend invitro, yeah the flushes are smaller but you still get a decent amount and it takes up almost zero space.


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Offlinetrophycase
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: FuckMeRunnin]
    #15166965 - 10/02/11 01:10 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I don't understand how they mature so nicely without FAE... Peoplel screw up FAE in their fruiting chambers all the time... How do mature invitros not have fuzzy stems or anything like that? And how do they get so large?


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OfflineBig Pappa
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: trophycase]
    #15167000 - 10/02/11 01:18 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Im having that same problem... pinning in the jar...  Here's what I have concluded...

either I packed the sub too tight....  OR maybe its because I used tall jars instead of short ones and when inoculating I only had short needles....  therefore the spores started growing from the top of the jar down, and before they can get all the way to the bottom of the jar the top part has fully consolidated already....  I dont know, but Im thinking its because of short needles.  The spores need to be dispersed near the glass in the MIDDLE of the substrate, not towards the top....


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Offlinen33grodamus
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: Big Pappa]
    #15167445 - 10/02/11 02:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Dude! can you please tell me how you went about growing invitro!
I really think growing invitro is a good option to save space and if your sgfc cant provide enough RH which is what mine is suffering from.

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OfflineFuckMeRunnin
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: n33grodamus]
    #15168417 - 10/02/11 06:30 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

n33grodamus said:
Dude! can you please tell me how you went about growing invitro!
I really think growing invitro is a good option to save space and if your sgfc cant provide enough RH which is what mine is suffering from.




Its really really simple dude. All you do is let the cakes go till they pin, then just let them do there thing. I got around 50 grams from an invitro cake. I believe it's a popular method for beginners over at mycotopia. I think they say to flip the jars at 100% to get that space to develop at the bottom, it's not necessary tho. Just do everything like normal, but instead of fruiting the cakes, just forget about them. I will say this about growing invitro. Usually they take longer to fruit compared to the normal method of fruiting them.

If you are interested in growing invitro, if you have a cake that is pinning early in the jar, take it out and throw the pin in an LC. That way you have known genetics that fruit well invitro. I remember RR talking about how that works well for invitro grows. That or if you do agar, and have an early pin on the agar use that to grow invitro.

Also to big pappa, I always used the tall half pints and never had a problem with cakes pinning early. I think if anything, its probably your moisture content. Next batch of cakes you do, try adding more water to the mix so they don't dry out as quick. Since evaporation is a big pinning trigger, it may be that they are drying out and are triggered into pinning. That or maybe the water content is too high and leads to an excess amount of evaporation, which could trigger pinning. Either or maybe mess with your water content and see if that helps.


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Offlinen33grodamus
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: FuckMeRunnin]
    #15168484 - 10/02/11 06:45 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Why throw the first pin in a liquid culture?
Does that give you a large amount of LC?
Right now i use a GLC tranfer id rather not use an LC
word, i have some flipped BRF jars that are taking a little longer to bottom colonize.  The mycelium that is growing now is super fluffy (its not cobweb).  Is that because of too much FAE?

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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: n33grodamus]
    #15168528 - 10/02/11 06:59 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I have an isolate that is pinning and fruiting in my jars before full colonization. My last batch of jars didn't pin invitro using the same isolate. The only difference between the jars is gas exchange, one set of jars used tyvek and other other set used filter discs. The filter discs jars are fruiting invitro. There was no verm barrier on either set of jars. Obviously not conclusive of anything but just thought I would throw that data out there.

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Offlinechucklehead
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: Fungus_monk]
    #15168567 - 10/02/11 07:05 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Fungus_monk said:
The three most common factors, to my knowledge, are using tall half pints, packing the sub too tight, or bacterial infections.




I agree with the Fungus-monk except the part about the tightly packed substrate where I sort of agree.  That really is a mislable of the problem IMO.  The tight substrate leads to slow colonization.  That in turn can result in part of the substrate that has been consolidated starting to pin before other parts of the substrate have even been colonized.

Also I would like to add to this list.  Evaporation, change in CO2 levels, and temperature changes.

How long have these jars been colonizing?  Have you ever turned them upside down or on their side for any length of time?

In my experience the biggest pinning trigger invitro has been change in CO2 levels.  This has happened for a couple reasons in my case. 

#1 reason.  I turned the jar upside down or sideways.  If I remember correctly CO2 is more dense than regular air at seal level.  Regular air being mostly 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen and about 1% other crap CO2 included at about .03%.  Anyway the heavier CO2 pours right out of the jar if it's upside down or even on it's side.

#2 The substrate started to shrink.  The shrinking volume of the substrate pulled it away from the sides of the jar.  This introduced two pinning triggers.  1. More rapid evaporation on the surfaces next to the jar sides and 2. some fresh air = change in CO2 level.  Primordia formed and presto pins.

The second biggest pinning trigger invitro in my experience has been contamination.  Someone told me once that this happens because the mycelium and it's competitor for the substrate the contamination are battling for survival.  One way to win or at least live on ( in terms of the DNA )  is to fruit and sporate.  That way the genetics move along to a new place and perpetuate the existance of the DNA somewhere else.  I don't know if that's true but I am pretty certain contaminations can cause pinning.

In any case good luck man.
:thumbup:

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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: chucklehead]
    #15168978 - 10/02/11 08:38 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, don't worry about that invitro, tis all good.  Allow the cake to 100% colonize.. and then wait 4-7 days.. wait at least to see some knotting on/near the last spots of the jar to colonize.. by then the center of the cake should be reasonably consolidated (fully colonized).

Birth, dunk and roll.  :thumbup:

Edited by igigi (10/02/11 08:39 PM)

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Offlinecarnage11
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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: chucklehead]
    #15168986 - 10/02/11 08:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You might have just revealed the answer to my mystery chucklehead.

I did flip the jars upside down.  They have only been colonizing for about 3 weeks, so I felt they were right on time in that respect. I should be birthing them next weekend. They also have pulled back from the glass. So it seems this strain of GTs are quick to fruit once introduced to even the slightest pinning trigger.  My Aussies took at least 3-5 days of being in the FC before they started to pin.

I noticed today, one of the jars "slid" down to the top of the jar (they're flipped upside down). I had flipped them so I could see the bottom of the jar and know when they were 100%. Today they are really close, like 98% colonized.  There is about a dime sized hole left to full. There are many small pins with little brown heads on one of the cakes. Interestingly, the pins are all forming near the dry layer of verm which is now on the bottom.


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Re: Why pinning in jars before 100% colonization. Genetics? [Re: carnage11]
    #15169019 - 10/02/11 08:48 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Yup, evaporation of moisture from the myc, among many other things, is one of the key triggers to pinning.


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