Home | Community | Message Board


Cannabis Seeds UK
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
InvisibleBrainstem
_@_y
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell Flag
Heyoka.
    #15144321 - 09/27/11 11:30 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know much about Heyoka (The Sacred clown) or their various equivalents, they seem to act in contradictory and ridiculous ways, but are still an integral part of their cultures. They participate in rituals and perform a social role.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heyoka

  Wiki exert;

Social role-The Heyókȟa symbolize and portray many aspects of the sacred, the Wakȟáŋ. Their satire presents important questions by fooling around. They ask difficult questions, and say things others are too afraid to say. By reading between the lines, the audience is able to think about things not usually thought about, or to look at things in a different way.

Principally, the Heyókȟa functions both as a mirror and a teacher, using extreme behaviors to mirror others, thereby forcing them to examine their own doubts, fears, hatreds, and weaknesses. Heyókȟas also have the power to heal emotional pain; such power comes from the experience of shame—they sing of shameful events in their lives, beg for food, and live as clowns. They provoke laughter in distressing situations of despair and provoke fear and chaos when people feel complacent and overly secure, to keep them from taking themselves too seriously or believing they are more powerful than they are.

In addition, sacred clowns serve an important role in shaping tribal codes. Heyókȟa's don’t seem to care about taboos, rules, regulations, social norms, or boundaries. Paradoxically, however, it is by violating these norms and taboos that they help to define the accepted boundaries, rules, and societal guidelines for ethical and moral behavior. This is because they are the only ones who can ask "Why?" about sensitive topics and employ satire to question the specialists and carriers of sacred knowledge or those in positions of power and authority. In doing so, they demonstrate concretely the theories of balance and imbalance. Their role is to penetrate deception, turn over rocks, and create a deeper awareness.[citation needed]

For people who are as poor as us, who have lost everything, who had to endure so much death and sadness, laughter is a precious gift. When we were dying like flies from white man's disease, when we were driven into reservations, when the government rations did not arrive and we were starving, watching the pranks and capers of Heyókȟa were a blessing.
—John Fire Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions, p250
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  What do you think about the use of contradictory behaviour, paradoxes, and the ridiculous to pose important questions ?


--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblezZZz
jesus
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,398
Re: Heyoka. [Re: Brainstem] * 1
    #15145489 - 09/28/11 05:28 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

i've heard of them. their practices consist of doing the opposite of everything. when people cry, they laugh. when they feel pain, they say they feel nothing at all. yes means no, no means yes, etc. i heard they go completely opposite of reality to the point where only another experienced heyoka can to bring them back. from what i know about them they personally test everything, not just go by word, they only know what they have known. they are indeed an interesting crowd.


--------------------
https://discord.gg/NHHd5y2Uyv


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 9,021
Last seen: 15 days, 15 hours
Re: Heyoka. [Re: Brainstem] * 1
    #15145509 - 09/28/11 05:37 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I think the inclusion of Nuts (mad hatters) & Bolts (hares) at wonderland social events, is somehow pertinent to the story.

Accredited to Woofwoofson:

"A raven is like a writing desk
Because a raven is full of quills
Which show potential
But without the essential
Application will never write thrills"


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 28,961
Re: Heyoka. [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #15145632 - 09/28/11 07:33 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

sounds right to me that a highly skilled shaman is a clown
actually we are all such clowns to a highly skilled shaman too
he is a perfect mirror and healer
so what if his features are exagerrated
and runny
or blur past their ordinary boundaries.
there is a time to dance in your bones.

seems 100% logical to me.


--------------------


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleBrainstem
_@_y
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell Flag
Re: Heyoka. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #15147931 - 09/28/11 06:06 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I really like their style. :thumbup:

The wonderland reference made me remember this;

"'I don't understand you,' said Alice. 'It's dreadfully confusing!'
'That's the effect of living backwards,' the Queen said kindly: 'it always makes one a little giddy at first —' 'Living backwards!' Alice repeated in great astonishment. 'I never heard of such a thing!'
— but there's one great advantage in it, that one's memory works both ways.'
'I'm sure mine only works one way,' Alice remarked. 'I can't remember things before they happen.'
'It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards,' the Queen remarked."

  The writings of Lewis Carroll are a gold mine of this sort of thing, and we would have been neighbors had I lived during his time or vice versa. He was definitely acquainted with the :mushroom2:

http://quantumperspectives.blogspot.com/2009/04/white-queens-strange-memory.html

just found this too.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 9,021
Last seen: 15 days, 15 hours
Re: Heyoka. [Re: Brainstem]
    #15161378 - 10/01/11 09:06 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

A problem with a determined future, I think, is that one could entertain a presumption of being an authority, which could then prove to be one's nemesis.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleBrainstem
_@_y
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell Flag
Re: Heyoka. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #15162080 - 10/01/11 01:32 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I just thought it was interesting to use these stories to address determinism and free will.
I had never looked at them in that way, more in the context of balance and opposites.

  I would take the view that the now is the point of definition, the future an unquantified potential and the past an accumulation of finite potential.

  This accumulation is, and can be utilized to influence the defining of unquantified potential in away that would suggest to me that the future is determined in the now, based on the finite accumulations of past determinations.  :willynilly:


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblezZZz
jesus
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,398
Re: Heyoka. [Re: Brainstem]
    #15162166 - 10/01/11 01:55 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

You are right. Everything that is, was, and will be, took and is taking place in the moment of the now. Its almost as if everything in the known history took and is taking place in an instant of time. It is like the whole universe in a drop of water.


--------------------
https://discord.gg/NHHd5y2Uyv


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleBrainstem
_@_y
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell Flag
Re: Heyoka. [Re: zZZz]
    #15162242 - 10/01/11 02:22 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I would emphasize Influence, there are always other variable factors, remember the potential is unquantified and cannot be entirely anticipated.

This would be a restriction on free will would it not ?
Not being able to see or envisage all possible potential outcomes ?

To have a complete model of all eventualities, and be able to handle consciously, every possible future would be awesome.

There would be projections of anticipatory experience, some ending abruptly and some leading to octogenarian-ism.

This kind of scope would be key to true free will,
what we have my sleepy friend is a variably limited will.

Maybe on some level we are in touch with all of these potential bread crumb trails to our destiny.
Sort of like conscious awareness operates on RAM and the subconscious is running off the hard-drive.

There is no way we could consciously comprehend all possible outcomes, we would go nuts having to weigh up all the data an then act. There may also be paths that break off only to rejoin an old one, and so are no more than a diversion.

So free will or determinism ?

I think, a variably limited will making it's way in the maze
of unlimited potential (is that the same as infinite ? idk).


Edited by Brainstem (10/01/11 02:47 PM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleBrainstem
_@_y
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell Flag
Re: Heyoka. [Re: Brainstem]
    #15164220 - 10/01/11 10:19 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

" Nonsense is the inseparable and undying brother of the supreme meaning." ~ Jung


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 9,021
Last seen: 15 days, 15 hours
Re: Heyoka. [Re: Brainstem]
    #15165052 - 10/02/11 02:47 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Brainstem said:
I just thought it was interesting to use these stories to address determinism and free will.
I had never looked at them in that way, more in the context of balance and opposites.

  I would take the view that the now is the point of definition, the future an unquantified potential and the past an accumulation of finite potential.

  This accumulation is, and can be utilized to influence the defining of unquantified potential in away that would suggest to me that the future is determined in the now, based on the finite accumulations of past determinations.  :willynilly:




O.K. The past as an accumulation of finite potential could be expressed as "leaves" (as eternalcowabunga suggested, in relation to God). I'm not sure I understand "unquantified potential" but I do know that composted leaves turn clay into topsoil thru the medium of worms and things that could be the determining factor, as you say, of the future. Other than assuming then that God is a combiner of leaves and clay that fosters lush growth, I guess I could draw on the adage that fruit doesn't fall far from the tree, unless it adopts principles other than that which it is given, so to speak.


Edited by Buster_Brown (10/02/11 03:04 AM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 9,021
Last seen: 15 days, 15 hours
Re: Heyoka. [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #15165093 - 10/02/11 03:16 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

In relation to your other thread then, I guess God would be our adopted principles that define our seperate existences. (Icelander kicks his own butt)


Edited by Buster_Brown (10/02/11 03:18 AM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* ritual accumulation and the pre-conscious NiamhNyx 708 11 02/11/08 04:02 PM
by BlueCoyote
* Determinism or Free Will? dill705 3,037 19 07/23/08 08:15 PM
by burgatory
* free will vs. determinism
( 1 2 3 4 all )
NiamhNyx 6,088 63 11/14/07 04:01 AM
by OrgoneConclusion
* Determinism and Free Will Ravus 882 15 05/30/05 11:02 PM
by vampirism
* Personal Change & Determinism Sclorch 898 15 12/11/03 02:02 AM
by Frog
* materialism, determinism, and free will revisited Anonymous 839 4 09/27/04 10:35 PM
by deff
* Determinism & Objective/Subjective Morality TinTree 2,647 13 01/24/05 12:34 PM
by shroomydan
* determinism
( 1 2 3 4 all )
TameMe 3,131 61 03/03/09 03:19 PM
by Recondicom

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
563 topic views. 1 members, 0 guests and 10 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
Mycotrop.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.038 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 16 queries.