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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1498154 - 04/27/03 05:04 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Of course not. How can anyone give absolute figures in such a situation?

Then why does Halliday claim he can? You must have missed this section:

...any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable."

"Any" means exactly that, Alex. It even applies to a range of figures, such as 4,000 - 7,000. The authors of the report are adamant that there is no way to use their data to support any figure -- whether from Dennis Halliday or Mickey Mouse.

Do you seriously believe if we keep sanctions in place but simply stop bottle-feeding everything will be ok?

As you are aware, Bush has called for the sanctions to be lifted immediately. Hopefully, for once the UN will actually do the right thing.

However, unlike you, I did spend some time looking further into this breast-feeding business, and all the humanitarian relief agencies are of the same voice on this point -- there is an undeniable statistical correlation between increased infant mortality and increased use of infant formula in lieu of breast-feeding in the countries they are monitoring. This is true not just in Iraq, but in all countries the agencies have investigated. This indicates that at least part of the rise in infant mortality in Iraq is due to the sharp increase in the use of infant formula there in the period covered by the reports.

Can all infant deaths in Iraq be attributed to this factor? Nope. But neither can all infant deaths be attributed to the effects of the sanctions.

pinky


--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (04/27/03 05:09 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1498187 - 04/27/03 05:23 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Then why does Halliday claim he can?

He doesn't give an "absolute" figure. He gives an estimate.

Any" means exactly that, Alex.

No it doesn't. Reading comprehension pink, reading comprehension. They are referring to any "absolute" figure. As i've already pointed out no-one can give an absolute figure for the number killed in the holocaust, this does not mean estimates cannot be given.

As you are aware, Bush has called for the sanctions to be lifted immediately

Are we supposed to be impressed? Now US oil corporations wish to sell oil? He is hardly likely to insist sanctions be kept in place is he?  :confused:

However, unlike you, I did spend some time looking further into this breast-feeding business

I'm way ahead of you pink. I've known about it for years. You should read up on Nestle policy in Africa.

Can all infant deaths in Iraq be attributed to this factor? Nope. But neither can all infant deaths be attributed to the effects of the sanctions.

What sort of argument is this? I have no doubt some of the childrens death can be attributed to natural causes too. So what? Are you seriously comparing the numbers killed by bottled milk to those killed by not allowing Iraq to import Chlorine to provide fresh water, basic childrens medicines and food? 


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1498478 - 04/27/03 07:41 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You demonstrate yet again your incapacity to understand your mother tongue. The authors of the report went to considerable effort to state in the clearest possible terms that

"Given the difficulty of accurately and specifically attributing the cause of death of a child to sanctions, any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable."

Observe the precision of their language -- this was not a casual statement. Words such as "accurately" and "specifically" have well-defined and commonly accepted meanings. When they used the phrase "any such figure", they did so deliberately. They pointed out that such figures would have to be "derived", not merely "copied" or "quoted", because they themselves quote no such figures. And finally, they use the word "questionable". Those who composed that statement were doing everything they could think of to get their point across.

It is hard to imagine a more thorough, complete, and unambiguous warning against misrepresentation of their work, especially when that sentence is coupled with the preceding one, "These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions." Yet that is precisely what Halliday claims they were intended to do.

Your feeble attempt at hair-splitting that his giving a range of 4,000 to 6,000 a month somehow exempts him from the "absolute" restriction deliberately ignores the "any such figure" part of the author's statement. Halliday says 4,000 - 6,000 a month, and points to the studies as a source. Someone else says 40 to 60 a month, and points to the studies as a source. The authors say -- "Both of you stop using our studies as an alleged source. They cannot be used to support any such figures."

Face it Alex. There is no way that anyone will ever be able to show that half a million children died as a result of the sanctions. I have no objection to someone claiming that children died during the time that sanctions were imposed who might otherwise have lived had sanctions not been in place. That is certainly a reasonable assumption to make. My objection is to someone pulling a figure out of midair as a factual figure, then attempting to buttress this arbitrary number by referring to studies whose authors state in unequivocal terms that they want no part of such grandstanding, and that their work is being misused by such tactics.

Are you seriously comparing the numbers killed by bottled milk to those killed by not allowing Iraq to import Chlorine to provide fresh water, basic childrens medicines and food?

Well, Alex, as has been widely reported recently, it turns out that thousands of tons of food and supplies had been hoarded in warehouses controlled by Hussein's thugs, just as I had suggested to you the very first time I posted these reports. You of course poo-poohed even the possibility that this might be the case.

As for water, how is it that Hussein could build a few dozen palaces with no difficulty, yet couldn't replace a few dozen miles at most of water pipes? Chlorine of course is the simplest of all, since chlorine is readily produced by passing an electrical current through salt water. Hell, even Haiti produces its own chlorine, for pete's sake. Yet multiple reports of factories in Iraq capable of producing far more complex chemicals are all over the news.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1499507 - 04/28/03 01:54 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

When did you leave school? Read the quote again, including the first line that you accidentally missed off

These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions. Given the difficulty of accurately and specifically attributing the cause of death of a child to sanctions, any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable

Are you seriously suggesting they are not talking about absolute figures here?

Yet that is precisely what Halliday claims they were intended to do

Once again, it isn't. They are talking about absolute figures. No-one can give absolute figures of those who died in the holocaust either. That doesn't mean 6 million isn't a good enough estimate.

There is no way that anyone will ever be able to show that half a million children died as a result of the sanctions

Thankfully UNICEF, WHO and a host of UN experts have already proved it. And btw, it's closer to 700,000. Remember the 4-6000 every month was "on the low side".

Well, Alex, as has been widely reported recently, it turns out that thousands of tons of food and supplies had been hoarded in warehouses controlled by Hussein's thugs

Source please?

btw, are they withholding this much?

As of last July, the United States, backed by the Blair government, was wilfully blocking humanitarian supplies worth $5.4bn, everything from vaccines and plasma bags to simple painkillers, all of which Iraq had paid for and the Security Council had approved.

http://pilger.carlton.com/print/132938

You of course poo-poohed even the possibility that this might be the case.

No, Scott Ritter did. You've got an annoying habit of pretending it's "me" rather than UN experts.

Chlorine of course is the simplest of all, since chlorine is readily produced by passing an electrical current through salt water

This is insanity. Are you seriously suggesting Saddam should attempt to produce chlorine, a WMD? What do you think Bush would have done if he had done so?

Yet multiple reports of factories in Iraq capable of producing far more complex chemicals are all over the news.

Reports of it are, actual chemicals are a bit short on the ground. Try and distuingish blatant propaganda from the truth.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1499723 - 04/28/03 03:08 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Read the quote again, including the first line that you accidentally missed off

Re-read my post, Alex. I didn't miss it off, accidently or otherwise. It's there.

Are you seriously suggesting they are not talking about absolute figures here?

Read the entire quote. Think about it. Apply your knowledge of your own mother tongue.

They are talking about absolute figures. No-one can give absolute figures of those who died in the holocaust either. That doesn't mean 6 million isn't a good enough estimate.

Completely irrelevant, and you know it is. I fail to see why you think after all this time you can get away with this kind of lame non sequitur. How stupid do you think we are?

The two figures aren't even remotely comparable. The Nazis kept scrupulous records of this kind of thing, even going so far as to tattoo numbers on their victims. And in the case of the holocaust, no one had to guess whether those who were herded onto the boxcars to Auschwitz never to be seen again were dying from infant formula vs breastmilk or from routine natural causes -- they were being made into lampshades and soap, their hair used to stuff pillows, their gold fillings used to replenish the coffers of the reich, and their ashes used to darken the landscape near the ovens.

Thankfully UNICEF, WHO and a host of UN experts have already proved it.

They have done no such thing, as the authors of the ONLY reports all the organizations rely on have stated unequivocally.

And btw, it's closer to 700,000. Remember the 4-6000 every month was "on the low side".

Incorrect. It is closer to 700. Remember the 4-6000 every month is completely unsupported by any factual data at all, therefore the number of 700 is as good as any.

Source please?

I'm not going to spoonfeed you. It's common knowledge. It was all over the news, especially the English news, since it was English troops who found the first such warehouse in Basra. Do you not even remember as far back as three weeks ago? Get some more sleep. Start eating right.

No, Scott Ritter did.

Ah, yes. The Scott Ridder who on the day of his resignation held a press conference in which he declared that Hussein had substantial biochem capacity, and could rebuild all the stocks he had destroyed in a matter of months. The Scott Ritter who testified under oath to the US senate the exact same thing. The Scott Ritter who claims he left because he was getting no backup from the UN to perform proper inspections. The Scott Ritter who, after receiving $400,000 from a source linked to Baghdad, suddenly reversed his position and said virtually all of Hussein's biochem weaponry had been destroyed (how he could know this since he was no longer in Iraq at the time remains unanswered) and has denied to this day that he ever claimed otherwise, despite the record of his Senate hearings and the several articles written from his press conference.

Why am I not surprised he might make claims that contradict what UNICEF had to say about it?

This is insanity. Are you seriously suggesting Saddam should attempt to produce chlorine, a WMD? What do you think Bush would have done if he had done so?

Guess what, Alex? There are all kinds of chemical plants left standing in Iraq, all of them easily capable of producing chlorine. And guess what, Alex? They weren't bombed in the 12 years between 1991 and 2003. They weren't even bombed in the recent war. We don't have to guess what Bush would have done about it, we know what he did about it -- nothing.

Reports of it are, actual chemicals are a bit short on the ground.

Not through any lack of capacity to produce them. Seems a lot of things are a bit short on the ground in Iraq. Except of course dozens of marble palaces with gold faucets, bedrooms loaded with crates containing thousands of AK 47s, and warehouses stuffed with relief supplies that never made it to those who needed it.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1500438 - 04/28/03 12:43 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I didn't miss it off, accidently or otherwise

Oh yes you did.

Think about it.

So you are still pushing the idea that no figure whatsoever can be applied? Where do you think the dozens and dozens of UN experts came up with the 4-7000 figure? Incidentally the author of a new report - who has spent 3 years studying the the devastating effect of sanctions - states:

JOY GORDON: The primary cause of child mortality in Iraq is from water borne diseases; cholera, typhoid and dysentry.

UNICEF says that it is for this reason that they conclude that there is about half a million children under five in Iraq are dead from the sanctions who would not have been and that's primarily water borne diseases.


Professor Joy Gordon - http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/s779232.htm

Incorrect. It is closer to 700

Only in your mind.

There are all kinds of chemical plants left standing in Iraq, all of them easily capable of producing chlorine

Not according the UN weapons inspectors.

And guess what, Alex? They weren't bombed in the 12 years between 1991 and 2003.

Perhaps because they WERN'T PRODUCING CHLORINE?

The US had banned the import of chlorine - the idea of Iraq producing it itself is simply ludicrous.

Not through any lack of capacity to produce them.

You keep saying this, the UN experts on the ground say Iraqs chemical weapon making facilities had been destroyed by 1998 - completly destroyed. I've posted the quote by RItter several times. Where are you getting your information?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1500450 - 04/28/03 12:53 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I've posted the quote by RItter several times.

Ritter is the last person who I would trust for good information. Why is it that you never quote any of the other weapons inspectors Alex?


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: z@z.com]
    #1500457 - 04/28/03 12:58 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Why is it that you never quote any of the other weapons inspectors Alex?

I've never heard you quote them either. Maybe you should do so instead of posting these weak one-line flames you never tire of making?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1500460 - 04/28/03 01:00 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

You haven't ever heard me quote them because I don't think they were ever allowed to see anything that the Iraqi government did not want them to see. Also I would hardly call that a flame.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Edited by z@z.com (04/28/03 01:01 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1500592 - 04/28/03 02:10 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Oh yes you did.

Re-read the post. It's right in front of your eyes.

Where do you think the dozens and dozens of UN experts came up with the 4-7000 figure?

What dozens and dozens are you talking about? To you, anyone who agrees with you automatically assumes the sacred status of "expert", anyone who doesn't is a buffoon. The only experts in this case are those who did the studies. We all know what they have to say, and guess what? It refutes all the imaginary numbers.

JOY GORDON: The primary cause of child mortality in Iraq is from water borne diseases; cholera, typhoid and dysentry.

I live in a third world country, and have done for the last fifteen years. My country is right next door to what is arguably the most "third-world" country in the western hemisphere. You know how we prevent water-borne diseases in these two countries? We put a tablespoon of bleach in the drinking water jug, shake it, and let it sit for a few minutes. That's it, that's all. It doesn't do anything for heavy metal contamination or other chemical pollution, but it kills all pathogens such as cholera, typhoid, etc. All of them. Every one. This is scientific fact, Alex, and easily checkable. Every humanitarian aid worker in the world knows this -- it is no big secret, it is common knowledge.

If Hussein had decided that he would rather salt away Iraq's wealth in offshore accounts, palaces, weaponry, etc. than convert a few of his chemical plants to chlorine production, then it's a damn good thing he's gone. To pretend that Hussein couldn't have produced chlorine is to exhibit gross stupidity. The production of chlorine is one of the simplest chemical processes there is. Even Haitians have no difficulty doing it. From the reports coming out of Iraq, it is apparent he had no difficulty producing much more complex chemicals, such as pesticides.

Only in your mind.

Okay, let's give it a "range", like Halliday. Make it 600 - 800.

The US had banned the import of chlorine - the idea of Iraq producing it itself is simply ludicrous.

Why? Why is it that every other country in the world has no difficulty producing chlorine?

You keep saying this, the UN experts on the ground say Iraqs chemical weapon making facilities had been destroyed by 1998 - completly destroyed. I've posted the quote by RItter several times. Where are you getting your information?

From the news, Alex. Every time another chemical factory is discovered by the troops, the media yammers, "We may have found a factory where biochems were produced. Preliminary tests are contradictory". A few days later, they say, "Whoops -- not biochem weaponry, just insecticides or dual-use chemicals." Face facts, Alex, there is no shortage of chemical manufacturing equipment in Iraq.

pinky


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Offlinekykeon
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Phred]
    #1507001 - 04/30/03 09:53 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Yesterday i saw on newz that USA soldiers killed 13 iraqi people who were gathered to shout against the usa oppression, outside a school that is not working because USA soldiers are sleeping in there.

Three of the dead iraqi were children, less than 10 years old.

I feel so fuckin sad that I am human.

And as RATM used to sing: "Freedom... yeah, right"


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The living ghost of Kykeon


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1507392 - 04/30/03 01:19 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

what a fuckin disgrace..


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Strumpling]
    #1507418 - 04/30/03 01:27 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

We got a whole folder on the "accidental killings". Come play....


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinekykeon
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Strumpling]
    #1514262 - 05/02/03 10:20 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

what a fuckin disgrace..



i agree... imho, there is absolutely NO excuse of killing someone, no matter how tough, unfair or asshole is his dictator...


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The living ghost of Kykeon


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: kykeon]
    #1514271 - 05/02/03 10:24 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"imho, there is absolutely NO excuse of killing someone, no matter how tough, unfair or asshole is his dictator... "

What if its in the process of preventing 1000 other people from being killed? Is that still wrong?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1514323 - 05/02/03 11:00 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

What if its in the process of preventing 1000 other people from being killed? Is that still wrong?

What is this philosophy of reducing life to meaningless numbers and statistics?

If you want to talk statistics there are millions of people dying in Africa - why didn't we spent the money we spent on Iraq saving them? We could have saved hundreds of thousands more lives than we "saved" toppling Saddam. If saving lives is your goal there are a lot better ways of doing it than bombing Iraq.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1514329 - 05/02/03 11:02 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Hey. Dont yell at me. I'm all for feeding the hungry. I was merely responding to what was said. Saying there is NO excuse for taking a human life is an undefendable position, and I'm curious to see what his logic is.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1514338 - 05/02/03 11:07 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think he said that. He said killing innocent people for what their dictator does is indefensible.

Which is fair enough.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Xlea321]
    #1514345 - 05/02/03 11:11 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

If thats what he meant, I'll buy it. But thats now I read it...And I dont think that was the meaning implied...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinekykeon
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Re: Human Rights... the Bush Way [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1518975 - 05/04/03 07:06 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What if What if its in the process of preventing 1000 other people from being killed? Is that still wrong?
?



Are you the God? Is Mr. Da Presidente the God? Am I the God? Nope.
So we cant kill 3 children under 10 y.o. because YOU, DA PRESIDENTE or ME think that "its in the process of preventing 1000 other people from being killed".

imho, when humans decide in pseudo-questions like the above mentioned,
is mainly because such decision proves power, leadership, braveness and other
human shit. and thats why those are pseudo-questions. because the humans
who like to prove themselves as powerful brave leaders, invent the question.

unfortunately its all inside our heads. Nature failed in our creation. but the
next generation of humans would be proabably better



--------------------
The living ghost of Kykeon


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