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OfflineKickleM
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Freedom Fighters / Terrorists
    #15131293 - 09/25/11 11:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

It seems that most people have their own ideas about right and wrong and very few are content with what they have, no matter how little or how much. And as a result they feel the need to change the world to suit an individual sense of righteousness. And when that individual sense of righteousness comes in contact with a differing sense of righteousness, we have a conflict on our hands.

It also seems that many misunderstand being content with what you have as apathy and I can only guess that this is because when one ceases trying to control the world, they are seen as abandoning action. Therefore I speculate that most people have control deeply engrained in their personal actions and when it is questioned they feel as though apathy is the only alternative. Is this true? Can you only do "good" or "bad" when you fully control events? E.g., it isn't enough for me to do good, everyone needs to do good or change will never happen.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: Kickle]
    #15131345 - 09/25/11 11:56 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"Don't worry, be happy"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: Kickle]
    #15131914 - 09/25/11 02:14 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Therefore I speculate that most people have control deeply ingrained in their personal actions and when it is questioned they feel as though apathy is the only alternative. Is this true?




If I'm understanding you correctly, I think it is a balancing act between a person's desire for the freedom to control their own destiny, the nagging of their moral conscience, and the anticipation of suffering as a result of stepping beyond the bounds placed on them by an outside force. 

Moralizing often allows one the escape route of unexpressed intent, which does not always have to align with any discernible action for one to feel that they're still on the right side of things.  For those that do not possess this moral dexterity, apathy or 'right' action are the available paths.

Scratch that... One can also focus their attentions elsewhere, distract themselves, put the blinders on, etc.,  narrowing the scope of their effective world such that the unsatisfactory state is not within their purview..  I wouldn't call this apathy.

Further, one could admit their inability to accurately predict the repercussions of some bold action or another, and therefore fence-sit in patience until a good way reveals itself.

But this might not be what you were getting at...

Also, "fully control events?"  I don't quite understand what you mean by this.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #15131979 - 09/25/11 02:29 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Hey man you just made me realize how truly unclear my post was. In that part you quoted I meant to point out that terrorists and freedom fighters are both interested in controlling the way the world works. That even those who say they are fighting for freedom are really fighting for the exact opposite, control. And so I speculate that the drive to control is deeply engrained in such actions.

IME when this is pointed out, especially to those who claim not to want control but instead freedom, there is a tendency to see only apathy as an alternative. I'm questioning whether or not that is true. If you're not fighting for control, are you automatically apathetic?


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: Kickle]
    #15132014 - 09/25/11 02:38 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
It seems that most people have their own ideas about right and wrong and very few are content with what they have, no matter how little or how much. And as a result they feel the need to change the world to suit an individual sense of righteousness. And when that individual sense of righteousness comes in contact with a differing sense of righteousness, we have a conflict on our hands.

It also seems that many misunderstand being content with what you have as apathy and I can only guess that this is because when one ceases trying to control the world, they are seen as abandoning action. Therefore I speculate that most people have control deeply engrained in their personal actions and when it is questioned they feel as though apathy is the only alternative. Is this true? Can you only do "good" or "bad" when you fully control events? E.g., it isn't enough for me to do good, everyone needs to do good or change will never happen.




Well as a property "owner" and I use the term loosely some element of "control" is needed.  If nothing else, it keeps that blessed middle path going.  The one where the rent comes in, the tenants feel blessed because it is truly low rent, and the owner is OK with that.  Yada yada yada.  I mean what's good or bad?  The toilet needs fixing you go fix it.  Was the toilet "bad" by having a "bad" flapper valve?  Where did that "wasted" water go?  And why do I keep using "quotes"?  Fucking moron is why. 

I'm kidding I am a fucking genius and don't you fucking forget it pal.  (Goes into little rap routine uh huh uh huh). 

So what's this talk about Freedom?



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #15132036 - 09/25/11 02:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

And why do I keep using "quotes"?  Fucking moron is why. 





"Fucking" moron is why.

Fucking "moron" is why.

Fucking moron "is" why.

Fucking moron is "why".


--------------------


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15132038 - 09/25/11 02:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"Fucking moron is why."


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: Kickle]
    #15132051 - 09/25/11 02:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

"Ouch"


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #15132068 - 09/25/11 02:51 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
It seems that most people have their own ideas about right and wrong and very few are content with what they have, no matter how little or how much. And as a result they feel the need to change the world to suit an individual sense of righteousness. And when that individual sense of righteousness comes in contact with a differing sense of righteousness, we have a conflict on our hands.

It also seems that many misunderstand being content with what you have as apathy and I can only guess that this is because when one ceases trying to control the world, they are seen as abandoning action. Therefore I speculate that most people have control deeply engrained in their personal actions and when it is questioned they feel as though apathy is the only alternative. Is this true? Can you only do "good" or "bad" when you fully control events? E.g., it isn't enough for me to do good, everyone needs to do good or change will never happen.




Well as a property "owner" and I use the term loosely some element of "control" is needed.  If nothing else, it keeps that blessed middle path going.  The one where the rent comes in, the tenants feel blessed because it is truly low rent, and the owner is OK with that.  Yada yada yada.  I mean what's good or bad?  The toilet needs fixing you go fix it.  Was the toilet "bad" by having a "bad" flapper valve?  Where did that "wasted" water go?  And why do I keep using "quotes"?  Fucking moron is why. 

I'm kidding I am a fucking genius and don't you fucking forget it pal.  (Goes into little rap routine uh huh uh huh). 

So what's this talk about Freedom?







I think it's true that all scenarios require some degree of control. So is there any difference between the control sought by the leaders of the world, the revolutionaries, or the everyday man? Or is it all the same type of control based around making a good life?


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #15132109 - 09/25/11 03:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Heh, ok.  I thought it was just me who thought it was unclear.  I was just going to ask you to clarify, but I figured I'd take a stab at interpreting it.

Quote:

If you're not fighting for control, are you automatically apathetic?




People fight for their ideals.  Some ideals involve greater degrees of control than others. 

Perhaps this control can be parsed into directive and protective control.  Some want to limit paths toward their perceived ideals, while others want to maximize the possibilities available to individuals while protecting them from the directive sorts.  But this is tangential...

Yes, in any case it seems necessary to exercise some sort of control in order to steer the course towards one's ideals. 

I'm trying to think of examples of a non-apathetic, non-controlling position.  Does self-control count?  If we consider self-control to be a unique case, then perhaps the 'lead by example' sort with no goals outside of their own self improvement could be considered the exception.  This person has motivation, but does not intend any external control.

Now if we could just find this guy...


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: DisoRDeR] * 1
    #15132135 - 09/25/11 03:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:

that's pretty much how I see it too. IMO self-control is the best form of control because most forms of control seem to be pushing the blame for mostly emotional problems onto external sources.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: Kickle]
    #15132156 - 09/25/11 03:13 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
It seems that most people have their own ideas about right and wrong and very few are content with what they have, no matter how little or how much. And as a result they feel the need to change the world to suit an individual sense of righteousness. And when that individual sense of righteousness comes in contact with a differing sense of righteousness, we have a conflict on our hands.

It also seems that many misunderstand being content with what you have as apathy and I can only guess that this is because when one ceases trying to control the world, they are seen as abandoning action. Therefore I speculate that most people have control deeply engrained in their personal actions and when it is questioned they feel as though apathy is the only alternative. Is this true? Can you only do "good" or "bad" when you fully control events? E.g., it isn't enough for me to do good, everyone needs to do good or change will never happen.




Well as a property "owner" and I use the term loosely some element of "control" is needed.  If nothing else, it keeps that blessed middle path going.  The one where the rent comes in, the tenants feel blessed because it is truly low rent, and the owner is OK with that.  Yada yada yada.  I mean what's good or bad?  The toilet needs fixing you go fix it.  Was the toilet "bad" by having a "bad" flapper valve?  Where did that "wasted" water go?  And why do I keep using "quotes"?  Fucking moron is why. 

I'm kidding I am a fucking genius and don't you fucking forget it pal.  (Goes into little rap routine uh huh uh huh). 

So what's this talk about Freedom?







I think it's true that all scenarios require some degree of control. So is there any difference between the control sought by the leaders of the world, the revolutionaries, or the everyday man? Or is it all the same type of control based around making a good life?




There are differences in control.  I have become a wimp at "taking advantage" of situations.  Even the ones crying out for it.  Which is sad i thought I was more of an "opportunist".  There was a time I would fuck a married woman and befriend the man.  Scary but it's true.  Control.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #15132837 - 09/25/11 05:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Control for sure. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Isn't that what the political "party" is all about?


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: Kickle]
    #15133158 - 09/25/11 06:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Control for sure. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Isn't that what the political "party" is all about?




Henry Kissinger.  Now there is a man who understands control.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Freedom Fighters / Terrorists [Re: Kickle]
    #15133214 - 09/25/11 06:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

There is no way to prove this, but I agree with Joseph Campbell that this goes back to the creation stories and is an example of the power that mythology can have.


See in the west we got the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam). In these religions the creation story involves the "fall of man", i.e. we got kicked out of the garden of eden. Since this was an historical act, the solution to our problems is also a historical act. In a very broad sense the belief in this story can set one up psychologically to believe that the solution to unhappiness is through action in the world.


In Asia a common creation story is that in the beginning there was nothing, and through some mystery 1 single something came out of that nothing. Because it was lonely it split itself in two, and then the two reproduced to create all the animals of the world. This split of the one into two is seen as a psychological problem of the mind rather than a historical act in the world. So the solution unhappiness is a psychological rather than behavioral one. Thus you have Buddhist psychology and yoga and meditation and things.


--------------------


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