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Invisiblejohnm214
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Electronics, Graphics Cards, that 'Squeal'- How to avoid?
    #15127684 - 09/24/11 01:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Its been known that some components of modern electronics, such as capacitors, chokes, amd coils, emit a high pitched noise, presumably due to mechanical vibrations.  Having encountered this 'feature' on a graphics card (~15kHz or so with intensity correlated with workload) I want to try and avoid buying such a product in the future.

I try and get efficient components and use quiet cooling solutions, so the last thing I want is to have a computer that has a prominent squealing.  Any tips, facts, rumors?



MSI advertises "military grade" graphics cards (which makes me think of bare-bones cheap crap but is apparently supposed to be a superlative marketing term) that supposedly eliminate such issues, though all I've definitevly seen is the claim that they use "solid state chokes" which I think is pretty common on modern cards anyways, so I'm not sure if there's an advantage there. 

Additionally, I've heard that AMD took steps to eliminate the issue and Nvidia didn't, but I'm not sure if this is accurate or not.

Finally, I've heard use of various adhesives on chokes placed on the circuit board can eliminate perceptible squeal, however; I'd rather avoid the problem in the first place if possible.

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Electronics, Graphics Cards, that 'Squeal'- How to avoid? [Re: johnm214]
    #15128197 - 09/24/11 03:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

can't say I've ever heard a pci installed card 'squeal' however maybe I can't hear it over the sound of the fan running over the heat sink. you'd probably know better then anyone which brand of hardware has the best technology with the least amount of noise. idk you tell me. which mechanical vibrations are necessary? the cards that don't emit them, how do they eliminate the mechanical vibrations. you'll probably have to figure out what the mechanical vibrations are and if they server a purpose or if they are just a symptom created by another necessary process. which companies have countered this?

nvidia seems to make the best graphics cards but they also sell out to the highest bidder meaning they are often incorporated with other technology certain motherboards make the most drivers for windows etc. but I've never heard of amd being left out when this description is used. nvidia actually does a lot of support for apple as well. so it's hard to say, sometimes the best brand has the most issues relating to other hardware since they often have contracts with other companies that use their stuff.

take microsoft, leading operating system for the 80's and most of the 90's, sure it had competitors but ms dos in my opinion was the best os based on a command line interface. they have since sold out and become one of the cheapest software companies, recycling their previous software and adding new registry security keys etc. making things more secure but basically spitting out the same garbage. they were one of the leading os in the world, but because of sell out ceo's etc. they have just become the whore of the industry.

it's really hard in that scenario to take one manufacturer, and label them as being very prominent and always better. maybe nvidia had the least amount of mechanical vibrations but now they have the worst set of vibrations. do you think it could be isolated to the specific card used? I couldn't tell you, but look extensively for the issue online, if you find it, try finding features that reduce the vibration, and look for them specifically from card to card.

I'm sure you've read my posts, and know that I have the least experience with this stuff out of everyone. but it always goes back to basic trouble shooting. if someone else on here knows, hopefully they can guide you, but usually it seems you answer my hard ware questions, no likely to be the other way around. well, at least not in this scenario :shrug:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Electronics, Graphics Cards, that 'Squeal'- How to avoid? [Re: johnm214]
    #15129655 - 09/24/11 09:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> MSI advertises

I really loathe MSI.  I just read a bunch of their marketing BS, and I like them even less.  They are taking common industry standards, and marketing them as if they are doing something magical and wonderful.  I find such tactics to be very misleading and borderline fraudulent.

With regard to the "noise" you are worried about... it has a lot more to do with design than with components.  If they design things that switch in audio frequencies, then there is a chance that you will hear something whine.  In rare cases, even the traces on the circuit board can be the source of the noise.  The only real solution is to pick a design that switches well above the frequencies that a person can hear (i.e. switch at 150 kHz rather than 15 kHz).

Also, in almost all cases, mil spec is simply a way to standardize components.  Saying that something is "mil spec" is absolutely meaningless for consumer electronics.  For example, I might specify a resistor using MIL-R-22684 as RL07S471J.  That is simply a fixed, film insulated, 1/4 W, 470 Ohm, 5% tolerance, thruhole resistor (at 70C).  I can pick one up at Radio Shack for a few pennies.  Don't get me wrong... there are some military specifications that set very tight tolerances on components, but there are just as many, if not more, that do not.  Saying something is "mil spec" is like saying a chemical is "graded".  Great, what grade?  There is a huge difference between technical grade and reagent ACS grade.  Marketers... :rolleyes:

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Electronics, Graphics Cards, that 'Squeal'- How to avoid? [Re: Seuss]
    #15130532 - 09/25/11 03:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Seuss is right - the only thing that really helps is using frequencies beyond the audio range. Unfortunately, that is only a solution that is feasible if you design the power converters yourself. In existing hardware, it sometimes helps to resolder the components that emit the noise, or put a dollop of silicone kit onto them to quench the vibrations. Other than that, there is very little you can do except sopundproof the case...

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Electronics, Graphics Cards, that 'Squeal'- How to avoid? [Re: Seuss]
    #15131146 - 09/25/11 09:02 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> MSI advertises

With regard to the "noise" you are worried about... it has a lot more to do with design than with components.  If they design things that switch in audio frequencies, then there is a chance that you will hear something whine.  In rare cases, even the traces on the circuit board can be the source of the noise.  The only real solution is to pick a design that switches well above the frequencies that a person can hear (i.e. switch at 150 kHz rather than 15 kHz).





Okay, and this design would be something that the actual card assembler/manufacturer would be responsible for rather than the chip makers or the particular GPU model- is this correct? 

Other than that dismal dose of reality can anyone advise anything?  I'm willing to pay extra, but I don't know what to do.  From reports I've read, MSI refuses to accept returns for "whine" even on their 'military grade' line, and I'm not aware of any other manufacturer who even acknowledges the issue at all.  Third party websites keep echoing MSI's marketing claims, but they all seem to based on the whole "solid state choke" thing, which I though was pretty ubiquitous anyways.  Can anyone confirm or deny that?  An example of a website siging MSI's praises for "fixing the whine" is here:  http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2009/05/29/msi-solves-the-nvidia-gtx-squealing-problem/1


The only partial-solution I know of is to check the handful of quiet-pc enthusiast sites that do their own testing with valid and disclosed methods.  Often they include a subjective description of the noise which indicates whether any "whine" is heard in addition to characterizing the fan noise.  Unfortunately, I've only found a few sites that seem to use a valid testing procedure and they only cover a tiny portion of the cards out there.  For the rest you can read plenty of website reviews, but most of these lack any coherent methodology, so their remarks are pretty much worthless.

Any suggestions?

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Electronics, Graphics Cards, that 'Squeal'- How to avoid? [Re: johnm214]
    #15132019 - 09/25/11 12:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> Any suggestions?

Not really.  To make matters worse, you can have a dead quiet card that works fine for a week, month, or year, before something gives and it begins to make noise.  The "whine" you are describing is known as "inductor singing" if you care to look it up.  When caused by coils, a small bottle of superglue is often your friend.

Regarding MSI's "solid state choke"... I've been digging trying to figure out what the hell this thing is.  Other than a single marketing line, that I cannot find a source for, that claims "solid state chokes can handle more current than blah blah blah", I cannot find much.  I did find a reference, in chinese, that seems to show a solid state choke is nothing more than a regular choke with the coils embedded within the core material.  Again, this seems to be an MSI marketing ploy rather than an industry standard. 

Personally, I would go for whatever card I liked based upon performance and put the extra money I was willing to spend for a quiet card into sound reduction foam for my computer chassis.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Electronics, Graphics Cards, that 'Squeal'- How to avoid? [Re: Seuss]
    #15132123 - 09/25/11 01:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I figured that sound reduction mechanisms for the case would be pretty limited due to the need to have good airflow.  I use pretty weak fans around 800-1200 rpm's at maximum to keep things quiet, though honestly fan noise is a lot better than inductor singing.

As for the 'solid state chokes' I believe they are contrasting whatever they do with those torroidal units that have wires wrapped around the torroid of whatever.  Those wires can physically vibrate apparently.  MSI uses chokes that are just little tiny boxes and use the procedure you refer to- physically embedding the components into a soild/fused little centimeter-scale cube. 

Unfortunately:
a) this doesn't seem to eliminate inductor signing compared to other modern cards,
b) I think those types of inductors are pretty common, as I see identical-looking cube-like chokes on motherboards and graphics cards that aren't assembled by MSI.  I can't figure out any solid difference between the "military grade" products and their competitors.




Here's an example of MSI marketing claiming to not have any inductor signing, though apparently they won't accept returns if this turns out to not be the case:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Electronics, Graphics Cards, that 'Squeal'- How to avoid? [Re: johnm214]
    #15132411 - 09/25/11 02:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I honestly can't tell any difference between their "solid state choke" and what the industry calls an "potted inductor".  I guess "solid state" sounds better to the marketing yoyos.

I also don't see what the big deal is about HiC CAPs.  Tantalum capacitors have been around for a long, long time.  They are very common.  Same goes for their Solid CAP.


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Re: Electronics, Graphics Cards, that 'Squeal'- How to avoid? [Re: Seuss]
    #15136587 - 09/26/11 11:53 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I've only noticed squealing from laptops, and it's probably the HDD @7200 rpm.  If you notice the sound coming from a video card or PSU you can try taking the cover off and inspecting any coils/capacitors.  You may even be able to make the coil stop by putting a bit of RTV silicone, and some use nail polish. 

Ultimately, if this is a PC you built yourself, I would just RMA whatever component is making the noise because it shouldn't be.  If you know it isn't a coil inspect all the capacitors for bulging or other physical defects.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Electronics, Graphics Cards, that 'Squeal'- How to avoid? [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #15136866 - 09/26/11 12:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"it shouldn't be"

I don't think so either, but it appears many manufacturers don't consider this a problem.  Which I can understand if they made no representationsd about noise or anything, but when they, like MSI, clearly claim to have a quiet product with no singing, then I think they're legally obligated to provide a product that meets their advertising.

I don't get how this isn't as big as an issue as it is.  I think perhaps that most people use loud fans or something and the drone masks the sound.  Maybe I am blessed with high frequency hearing or something.  I don't know.

In any case, it is definately the cards which I hear, not the other components.  PSU's have reasonable good reviews available, unfortunately it seems graphics cards are harder to charecterize before purchase- probably because they make so many more models while the decent PSU's remain relatively the same.

Quote:

Seuss said:
I honestly can't tell any difference between their "solid state choke" and what the industry calls an "potted inductor".  I guess "solid state" sounds better to the marketing yoyos.





lol, "solid state" sounds high tech, I suppose.

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Electronics, Graphics Cards, that 'Squeal'- How to avoid? [Re: johnm214]
    #15140327 - 09/27/11 03:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

John, keep in mind that the step-down voltage converters on the motherboard that generate the proper voltages for the CPU usually make some noise too. A video card has many similarities with a motherboard in terms of electrical engineering and major building blocks, so that's a likely candidate for switching noise too. Those two along with the power supply are the three most likely (and usually: only) candidates for this kind of noise.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Electronics, Graphics Cards, that 'Squeal'- How to avoid? [Re: johnm214]
    #15140674 - 09/27/11 06:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Its been known that some components of modern electronics, such as capacitors, chokes, amd coils, emit a high pitched noise, presumably due to mechanical vibrations.  Having encountered this 'feature' on a graphics card (~15kHz or so with intensity correlated with workload) I want to try and avoid buying such a product in the future.




I'm not sure that there is an easy solution to avoid having a capacitor on either your PSU, Graphics Card, or MB that vibrates at a frequency which clashes with the rest of the components in your system... Complicating things further, a sound can come from one component, even when it's not the source of the actual problem...  My own personal solution is to distance myself further from my computer.  I put my tower in the back of my walk in closet, running extra long cabling, including a hub and external audio interface at my desk, and shut the door to the closet...


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