Home | Community | Message Board

Cannabis Seeds - Original Sensible Seeds
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism.
    #15091443 - 09/17/11 10:53 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

When Gautama lived in the palace surrounded by endless delights, he did not grow, he did not mature, and he contributed nothing to others.  It wasn't until Gautama was overwhelmed by the appearance of suffering that he put effort in to his awakening--in to seeing reality directly as it actually is--to become the Buddha.

It is trendy right now to suppose that enthusiasm and optimism are positive traits that make us good people, while irritability and pessimism are for dysfunctional people.  This might appear true on a purely superficial level, but when you take a moment to consider the broader scope, a very different picture emerges.

When we become enthusiastic, we are expressing our belief that there is something inherently exciting about the thing or event we're enthused about.  Since no thing or event has any inherent property whatsoever, already we have departed from an authentic relationship with reality.  Once we pause to consider how it's merely the cognition of favourable attributes which facilitates the development of enthusiasm within our own mind, we find it impossible to maintain that enthusiasm.  This is because enthusiasm is based entirely on a mistaken apprehension of reality.  There is nothing to be enthusiastic about, because there is nothing out there.

Even when it is not disingenuous (I believe it most often is), enthusiasm is a state of delusion. 

We could say the same about annoyance.  Annoyance also presumes inherent attributes about external things or events, and is thereby incongruent with reality.  I tend to regard annoyance with less skepticism, however, because the discomfort of annoyance is more likely to bring about a critical analysis of our experience than can be said of its opposite, enthusiasm.  By way of its pleasurableness, enthusiasm is self-reinforcing.  It will carry us deeper and deeper in to delusion over time.  Annoyance, by contrast, is ultimately self-cancelling: it will eventually force us to choose between our discomfort and an authentic confrontation with the actual circumstances of reality, thereby affording us the opportunity to take responsibility for our relationship with it and become productive people.

We could apply the same analysis to personality traits like optimism and pessimism.  Neither the optimistic view nor the pessimistic view correspond with reality.  Pessimism, however, is more likely to cause us to consider our relationship with reality by way of the uncomfortable mental state it invokes.  Optimism, by contrast, seduces us with pleasant feelings, thereby carrying us off in to delusion as a river carries a branch out to sea.  While optimists are prone to living in a fantasy world of selective view (Gautama in the palace), pessimists are more likely to emerge from the shadows and encounter reality as it actually is (Gautama moved by the appearance of the starving man), equipped to handle their experience pragmatically, productively, and for the benefit of themselves and others.

And so for this reason, I believe it is appropriate to mistrust enthusiastic, optimistic people, and to be confident in the progressive sincerity and growth of annoyed pessimists.  In general, I have noticed that the most empathetic, considerate, intelligent people tend toward a somewhat pessimistic outlook, while the most profoundly self-obsessed, inconsiderate, ignorant people tend toward living in rose-coloured worlds that exist entirely within their own minds, rendering them utterly abortive, ineffectual individuals.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCups
technically "here"
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Ped]
    #15091571 - 09/17/11 11:35 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)



At about 38s.  Didn't really get that whole sequence til the last time through.

Good post overall IMO. :thumbup:


--------------------
What's up everybody?!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Ped]
    #15091804 - 09/17/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Yay  I win by being a loser. :curbyourenthusiasm:

But pessimism is just as much of a delusional state. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Ped]
    #15091818 - 09/17/11 01:12 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:

Neither the optimistic view nor the pessimistic view correspond with reality.




--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Ped]
    #15091825 - 09/17/11 01:15 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

How would you know that?  It's delusional due to the very fact that we don't know what reality actually is.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Icelander]
    #15091890 - 09/17/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

>> How would you know that?  It's delusional due to the very fact that we don't know what reality actually is.

An optimistic outlook is not correspondent with reality because the condition "optimism" occurs within the mind and nowhere else.  The exact same can be said of the pessimistic outlook.  It's all just polishing rails on the titanic.  Pessimism, however, is more likely to deliver a person to this realization, because it is innately discomforting.  Optimism, by contrast, allows us to grow comfortable with ignorance.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Ped]
    #15091900 - 09/17/11 01:32 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I repeat.How would you know that?  It's delusional due to the very fact that we don't know what reality actually is.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Icelander]
    #15091990 - 09/17/11 02:05 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

We don't know what reality actually is because we relate to it according to our preferences or our resistances as opposed to how it actually is.  Since optimism and pessimism reflect two aspects of this same bias, neither are satisfactory when it comes to approaching an authentic relationship with reality.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Ped]
    #15092036 - 09/17/11 02:23 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

OK then smart guy since you choose to sidestep the question every time.  What is reality and how do you know when you've identified it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Ped]
    #15092340 - 09/17/11 03:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

:blah:




You've been asked a simple, direct question written at 3rd grade level twice now.

Why won't you give a direct answer to the direct question?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Diploid]
    #15092480 - 09/17/11 04:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Certainly hasn't changed much. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Icelander]
    #15092484 - 09/17/11 04:38 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

For Christ's sake, this isn't complicated.

Reality is what we experience when we've laid aside preferences and resistances.  I make no claims to have accomplished this; I am simply pointing out that optimism and pessimism are exaggerated facets of this internal bias, which ultimately do not serve as viable starting points for our relationship with reality.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Ped]
    #15092495 - 09/17/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Reality is what we experience when we've laid aside preferences and resistances.  I make no claims to have accomplished this;

So if you haven't accomplished it then how do you know it's true?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Icelander]
    #15092509 - 09/17/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't say I know it is true, I implied that I am confident in it by way of deductive reasoning, and by way of my faith in what Buddha had to say about the subject.  If that's not good enough for you, then feel free to abstain.  Why are you trying to prove, Icelander?


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Ped]
    #15092560 - 09/17/11 04:59 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I'm debating in the debate forum.  When someone makes a claim it's appropriate to ask how they know it to be true.  I'm trying to show you don't really know what you're talking about.  When one talks here without evidence it comes off as preaching imo.  That belongs in that other forum.

If you haven't experienced what you claim one should do or what is likely true then what should I think?  If you don't want to be challenged then there is another forum for that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Icelander]
    #15093230 - 09/17/11 07:43 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I think this is a thin veil hiding your combativeness.  Isn't it true that you have nothing to offer to this contemplation, but that you can't resist differing with it anyway?  Haven't changed much, have you?

I have experienced both optimistic and pessimistic states of mind, and I have witnessed through experience that both are unsatisfactory as far as informing me about a given circumstance or situation.  I have also witnessed this in others.  I have contemplated why this might be so.  I have observed that popular thought trends toward the assumption that optimistic attitudes are more pragmatic, and I have observed that the opposite might in fact be the case.  From here, I articulated a point of view, and I presented it to this forum.

Quote:

philosophy |fəˈläsəfē|
noun ( pl. philosophies )
the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, esp. when considered as an academic discipline.

• a set of views and theories of a particular philosopher concerning such study or an aspect of it: Schopenhauer’s philosophy.
• the study of the theoretical basis of a particular branch of knowledge or experience: the philosophy of science.




Views.  Theories.  Theoretical basis.

With my original post I've offered a view, a theory with theoretical basis concerning the fundamental nature of knowledge based on observation and reasoning.  I've presented an argument based on both subjective and objective insights I've gained in the context of my own experience.  That is what philosophy is.  That is where debate begins.

Your approach appears to be: you can't prove it, therefore you shouldn't talk about it.  This is nonsense.  With this starting point, we had all better stop talking immediately, because no one is qualified to prove anything about the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, or existence.  You attitude wouldn't even be accepted in science, which is an order of magnitude more stringent in its adherence to empirical data than philosophy.  In order to even begin approaching the truth, we must be able to discuss, not dismiss the views of others, and we must be able to identify the obstructions to approaching the truth.  I have offered all of these things.  You have offered nothing other than "you can't prove it."  It's you who has failed to rise up to the challenge, Icelander.

Again I ask you, what are you trying to prove?


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Ped]
    #15093409 - 09/17/11 08:16 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

This

Since no thing or event has any inherent property whatsoever, already we have departed from an authentic relationship with reality.  Once we pause to consider how it's merely the cognition of favourable attributes which facilitates the development of enthusiasm within our own mind, we find it impossible to maintain that enthusiasm.  This is because enthusiasm is based entirely on a mistaken apprehension of reality.  There is nothing to be enthusiastic about, because there is nothing out there.

This is speculation as far as anyone has shown here.  I've asked you to show me how you know that reality consists of "nothing out there" but you side step the question. 

Everything you are saying is based on the presumption that you know what is or is not real.  I say you don't and ask you to prove me wrong.

You are trying to make a distinction between the values of optimism and pessimism but from your examples they have equal value.  You could just as easily have said that "There is nothing to be pessimistic about because there is nothing out there"

It's likely that a pessimist would easily accept the view that pessimism is a more honorable state for growth and awareness but  is it?  Or is it a way to justify ones state of mind.  I'm obviously a pessimist but doubt that increases my perception of truth or reality, due to the fact that it's impossible to know  as far as anyone has shown.

So show me what is "real" and how you identify it and then I might be able to agree that a pessimist has a step up on the optimist. 


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/17/11 09:32 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
 User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Icelander]
    #15107289 - 09/20/11 03:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

>> Or is it a way to justify ones state of mind.  I'm obviously a pessimist but doubt that increases my perception of truth or reality, due to the fact that it's impossible to know  as far as anyone has shown.

Alright.  Did I compose my original post to justify my own state of mind?  Upon reflection, the inescapable answer is yes.

Where you and I differ is in the notion that it is possible to encounter reality with complete authenticity.  Although I believe that such and encounter is possible, I will concede that it is impossible to prove this is true, and as such it is inappropriate to couch this assumption as supporting evidence in a posited argument.

Suppose I made the claim that I was in direct correspondence with reality, free from all bias, that I had accessed the very truth of existence.  Could I prove this?  Of course not.  Even if I began articulating such an experience, the words in themselves contaminate the meaning behind them, and the personal biases of the individual I am speaking to also modulate what is said.  If a direct relationship with reality were possible, it would be utterly unspeakable, and thereby utterly impossible to prove by way of scientific demonstration.  The best I could do would be to articulate a method to establish a direct relationship with reality, and leave it up to the individual to pursue that method independently.  This is exactly what Buddha did.  I believe that the Buddha was in direct correspondence with reality by virtue of his actions, comportments, teachings, and their merits, and as such I have engaged the methods he taught with the belief that such a state is attainable.  You are of course not required to accept this as a worthwhile starting point for anything I say.

(Disclaimer: I make no claims that I am in direct correspondence with reality, and I make no claims to be Buddha.)

I do maintain that pessimism has more value than optimism for the following reason:

Since both optimism and pessimism are biased views, they are equally deficient as far as supporting our correspondence with reality, and as such they are equally valueless.  However, optimism begets optimism by way of the pleasant feelings it invokes, while pessimism defeats pessimism by way of the suffering it invokes.  If we assume that it is possible to correspond with reality directly, then this line of reasoning can be continued.  If we assume that it is not possible to correspond with reality directly, then this line of reasoning is defeated immediately.

I cannot prove that it is possible to correspond with reality directly.  This, however, is not evidence that it is impossible to correspond with reality directly.  However, I will suggest that it is more pragmatic to operate under the assumption that it is possible to correspond with reality directly, as this belief compels us in to the pursuit of authenticity.  Naturally, this precipitates authenticity toward self, which can bring about self-reconciliation and peace.  These appear to me as worthwhile goals, and it is therefore apparent that such a view is worthwhile to adopt from a humano-philosophical standpoint. 

In my next most recent reply to you, I became defensive and presented you with a personal challenge.  I'd like to applaud you in differing from this challenge and instead remaining loyal to the subject matter at hand. :heart:


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Enthusiasm vs Irritability, Optimism vs Pessimism. [Re: Ped]
    #15107594 - 09/20/11 04:46 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

While it's likely I'm experiencing reality in every moment I'm not wired to define that experience with language as you point out.  I'm also not able to interpret it without going through the story telling that the neo-cortex indulges in. :shrug:

This was really all I was getting at.  I don't know the big Tao directly.  Yet I am it. :monkeydance:

As far as pessimism vs optimism goes I feel it most difficult to judge the merit of each due to the fact of not knowing the design of creation or ultimate reality.  I'm not the creator and maybe the plan is just to be an experiencer and participate in this evolutionary process for unknown reasons.  This would make optimism equal with pessimism, which it likely is imo.  Now subjectively I may value one over the other and go back and forth at different times in my life due to different specific goals.  Personally I like pessimistic types but that could be in my need to justify myself and feel part of a group.

Veritas is one of the most lovely humans I've ever met.  Soulful, thoughtful, brilliant, empathetic, loving and nurturing. 
She's almost always bright and cheerful and optimistic about the value of life.  In so many ways her experience of being alive seems worthwhile due to her optimism and she certainly enjoys life more than most I've met including me much of the time in the past. 

Currently I've undergone a dramatic change in my emotional mental landscape due to my work with my own death anxiety. My lifelong depression has lifted to some degree and I often find myself happy these days.  Let me tell you, I highly recommend it. :thumbup: Especially since no one really knows what's going on and what the meaning of existence is imo. 

Subjectively it's better to enjoy than suffer imo.  But I'm shooting for a middle path with all this.  I value my pessimism as a guide at times.

Looking back on our interactions I'm willing to admit that I've gone after you.  I thought about this and realized it was due to my impressions of you when and how you left the shroomery all those years ago.  I'm just letting you know why I said I don't respect your positions.  It's mostly old shit.:shrug:  I think I'll let it go now that I've identified it. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Optimism vs. Pessimism Octavius 1,683 7 05/07/06 11:46 AM
by TODAY
* HOW WE SHOULD LIVE LIFE: Ants V.S. Lions V.S. Leeches. Sombie 1,064 9 05/03/03 11:39 PM
by Dogomush
* Optimism and Hope are ALWAYS Good
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 2,862 44 11/16/04 03:21 PM
by LunarEclipse
* Nature v. Nurture Frog 1,122 16 09/11/04 10:34 AM
by Frog
* Pessimism ?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
jivJaN 3,058 73 03/29/09 01:58 AM
by Lakefingers
* "You are really irritating!"
( 1 2 all )
OrgoneConclusion 2,469 37 08/20/07 09:46 PM
by PhanTomCat
* Death to cynical optimism! Mixomatosis 850 16 01/13/05 11:27 PM
by Mixomatosis
* Lynn V. Andrews (female Castaneda)
( 1 2 all )
Swami 3,793 31 07/13/04 07:46 PM
by Huehuecoyotl

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,040 topic views. 1 members, 6 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.026 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 14 queries.