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 F64
Sclerotia For Everyone!
Registered: 06/06/11
Posts: 61
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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 H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy 
#15094799 - 09/18/11 07:41 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey Gang,
this guy, Dr. Wayne, developed a tek for edible mushrooms grown on pellet/saw dust, which does not require any sterilization or sterile environment. He uses H2O2 / Hydrogen Peroxide on the substrate.
My core question is, if we can modify this tek to work with grain, cubes and sclerotia (my personal interest). It may not be easy to make it work, but if we do, it would be a freaking revolution. So let's at least take a look at it before saying it can't be done.
The guy says, the peroxide will kill all predatory spores. We know that already for LC, but for substrate this is new (right?). He seems to suggest, it even gives the myc in the jar oxygen, once it breaks the H2O2 down. The myc culture only needs to adapt once to H2O2 on agar for 2 weeks, then it'll grow just fine with it in the substrate. I'm assuming afterwards you can do G2G without adapting it again.
I think I read somewhere on his website, that peroxide also works on grain, but it has to be baked or PCd or steamed for very long - not to sterilize it, but to break down certain enzymes that break down the peroxide too early, thus making it ineffective. Still, baking a huge pile of grain for a few hours and then doing the rest of the work in a non-sterile environment would save shitloads of time, and would allow for producing much much more jars than with an averaged-size PC.
Let's call his peroxide-on-wood tek Wayne Tek. And I would like to turn this into a new, cube & sclerotia (grain) friendly F Tek.
F64
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 FooMan
Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth 
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 Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: F64]
#15094889 - 09/18/11 08:19 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Old, unreliable tek. Some people claim to have success with the peroxide tek, but overall it is about as solid as the oven tek is for creating a sterile work area. Peroxide wouldn't kill endospores on grain so it is definitely useless for what you're trying.
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Quick WBS Prep
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F64
Sclerotia For Everyone!
Registered: 06/06/11
Posts: 61
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: FooMan]
#15095090 - 09/18/11 09:31 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
FooMan said:
Old, unreliable tek. Some people claim to have success with the peroxide tek, but overall it is about as solid as the oven tek is for creating a sterile work area. Peroxide wouldn't kill endospores on grain so it is definitely useless for what you're trying.
Yes, I expected reactions like this. And I sorta agree with you, that the chance for success is not too high. HOWEVER, if there IS success, it would be huge. That's why I'm asking you to not immediately dismiss this idea, but think about how it could work.
Most interestingly: Who are the people claiming to have success with H2O2? How did they do it, where are their threads?
Let's not forget, the guy I linked to has a PhD and published three books on "non-sterile" shroom teks. I don't think you're saying he's a liar? If not, the only question is how exactly he does it, and how we can transfer that from WOOD to GRAIN.
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hellfirez
FluckDup
Registered: 05/12/11
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Loc: Behind You
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: F64]
#15095148 - 09/18/11 09:54 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Not trying to bash this or anything just a couple things to consider. Baking grain for a few hours seems a lot more time consuming than pcing for an hour an a half. Sure you could do more at once, but some people run multiple pcs. This baking process would be pretty easy to burn your grain, also how would you keep the moisture content correct? There's a lot of variables to consider.
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ebrakim
Zulu Nation Mycophile
Registered: 08/06/11
Posts: 169
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: hellfirez]
#15095267 - 09/18/11 10:35 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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It's an interesting idea, but surely Stamets or someone else has tried it multiple times and thus discredited its reliability or consistency.
That guy may have a Phd, but I would trust any professional mycologist over him.. My point being that if the peroxide tek had any merit, it would probably be on here somewhere or in one of Stamets' books.
Not to bash the idea though, I like to hear new suggestions thrown out. It you try it, keep us updated
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mikesethnobotany
Man
Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 1,267
Loc: Missouri, USA
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: hellfirez]
#15095274 - 09/18/11 10:36 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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To all the nay-sayers, this guy doesn't want your nay-saying... get a new hobby if you are wanting to nay-say, because you are not being a beneficial part of this community right now. This H2O2 method of doing things has been used, just not well documented around shroomery.
To the OP:
I hope to see some sort of write-up in the future regarding your efforts to developing a H2O2 method. This is an excellent idea, and for some people who cannot afford a PC, it will provide a different avenue for them to take in their efforts. Great idea, keep on keepin' on, it will pay off.
+1
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F64
Sclerotia For Everyone!
Registered: 06/06/11
Posts: 61
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: mikesethnobotany]
#15100283 - 09/19/11 10:43 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trying is the first step to failure!
- Homer Simpson
Quote:
One should not pursue goals that are easily achieved.
- Albert Einstein
Pick which side you're on.
I have taken the liberty to research some more info, maybe this will get some of you excited. I will definately need 2-3 people who will do experiments with me. If you've worked with this stuff before your only cost-factor should be the H2O2 (about 2$ for the required quantity) and possibly buying normal/instant rice.
First of all: Dr. RR Wayne
I think it's really important, that everybody understands and agrees what authority in mycology he is. Obviously, he IS a mycologist. His PhD is in Biochemistry and he's been working on refining the H2O2-Method for decades. His method is being used by commercial growers. Be sure to check out his website, he also links to growers that use his method: http://www.mycomasters.com
Yesterday I randomly opened the book "Psilocybe Mushroom Handbook" by Nicholas and Ogamé and Dr. Wayne is mentioned 17 times through the PDF. In the introduction, they write "Without question, Wayne's discovery represented a true revolution for generalized mushroom cultivation techniques. What the PF Tek did for Psilocybe cubensis cultivation, the "peroxide tek" does for the cultivation of nearly all species of mushroom-producing fungi." and "It is no exaggeration to state that the book you hold in your hands would not have been written without Rush Wayne's discovery and writings."
Now I'm assuming that discussion about him can be settled?
Second: How to use the H2O2 to produce spawn jars?
I am not sure! I haven't had the money or time to buy and read Wayne's books, but there is information floating around on his website, other websites, and other books.
But I have decided to email Dr. Wayne, whose email address is on his website, and he answered right away:
"Hello F....,
Thanks for your note and question.
I don't have any experience with, or knowledge regarding sclerotia themselves, so I don't know whether the presence of peroxide would have any effect on their formation. In regard to the grain medium, however, I can tell you that baking the grain does not seem to entirely eliminate the peroxide-decomposing enzymes. Roasting to a partial char, as is done in making coffee, seems to be required to do the job. A possible option, though, is the use of processed rice products such as so-called instant rice, or "parboiled rice," or "converted rice,' These seem to be enzyme free, so then it is just a matter of whether any of these products (which I think are all versions of the same thing) will properly support the growth of your mycelium. It is even conceivable that puffed rice or puffed wheat might be enzyme-free.
--Rush W."
1.So: we need to get instant rice, ideally wholegrain instant rice. Sclerotia grows fantastically on wholegrain rice, I'm assuming Cubes do as well.
2. We measure the instant rice, then either boil it for a bit, or add boiling water to it - what do you guys think? Maybe this can be answered through experimentation.
3. Next, we add H2O2. This brings us to the next problem: How much H2O2 to add?
In the Psilo Mushroom Handbook, they write "Peroxide is generally added to the grain at the time of inoculation to provide additional protection from contaminants, at the rate of 6mL for every 2-3 cups of cooked grain. "
The book talks about 3% peroxide. So 6 ml of 3% peroxide, for every 1-Pint (=2 cups) of cooked rice.
However, I found somewhere, that Dr Wayne suggests 10 ML 3% for every 8 oz (1/2 Pint) can be added. So this is twice as much as what the Psilo Mushroom Handbook recommends.
-- Again something we need to find out!
Shake very thoroughly to ensure the rice is completely covered with H2O2
4. Add Mycelium, preferably from an agar medium, that has previously been adapted to H2O2.
H2O2 in agar is, of course, nothing new and nothing controversial. It is, inter alia, described here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/375774
Wayne says, it needs to adapt up to 2 weeks. Somewhere else I read it only takes 1-2 days. In any case, you can just watch and see how the myc grows. Once it grows as fast as usual, it has adapted.
I would be very interested in whether it would be possible to make the mycelium adapt to peroxide in LC (Wayne says "prolly not") and on an already colonized, or maybe half-colonized, grain-jar, which could then be used for G2G once the mycelium has spread completely.
- especially the G2G option is something we need to test. Or maybe I should ask Dr Wayne about it. What do you guys think?
Third: How to use the H2O2 to produce bulk substrate
I'm headed off to have a social life now.
I'll continue with this step later, especially if there are people willing to start producing a spawn jar or cake with peroxide.
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k00laid
NEMO
Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 8 months, 20 days
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: F64]
#15100301 - 09/19/11 10:51 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
F64 said:
Quote:
Trying is the first step to failure!
- Homer Simpson
Quote:
One should not pursue goals that are easily achieved.
- Albert Einstein
Pick which side you're on.
the middle way is the only true path.
thanks though.
as for peroxide, could you get it to work? maybe.
i steam sterilized pint jars of rye berries (no PC) and i got that to work.
but do i post teks saying NO PC GRAINS WOOT WOOT.
no cuz its not worth it.
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AMU - AMU Q & A - MyVideo Teks!
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F64
Sclerotia For Everyone!
Registered: 06/06/11
Posts: 61
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: k00laid]
#15102061 - 09/19/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
no cuz its not worth it.
Of course it's not worth it for us. We're posting in this forum, because we're willing, nay wanting to invest time, buy a PC, and make this our hobby. But many many people would not do that, and yet they still want to enjoy the pleasures of shrooms. And currently, they are at the mercy of drug dealers.
I want to make it EASY for people. I want it to be normal for people to have one or two jars of sclerotia somewhere in the cupboard, waiting to be harvested and enjoyed with friends when the time is right.
So, really, your attitude reminds me of my programmer-friends, who say "why does our software need an interface for users - WE can use it via the commandline, because we have learned all the commands. Clearly, an interface is not worth it".
I still need people who are willing to invest a little bit of time into this, and test the different ways in which this could work.
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dontkillthedj
lurker
Registered: 08/04/11
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Loc: no-mans-land, US
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: F64]
#15102440 - 09/19/11 06:10 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
F64 said:
Quote:
no cuz its not worth it.
Of course it's not worth it for us. We're posting in this forum, because we're willing, nay wanting to invest time, buy a PC, and make this our hobby. But many many people would not do that, and yet they still want to enjoy the pleasures of shrooms. And currently, they are at the mercy of drug dealers.
I want to make it EASY for people. I want it to be normal for people to have one or two jars of sclerotia somewhere in the cupboard, waiting to be harvested and enjoyed with friends when the time is right.
So, really, your attitude reminds me of my programmer-friends, who say "why does our software need an interface for users - WE can use it via the commandline, because we have learned all the commands. Clearly, an interface is not worth it".
I still need people who are willing to invest a little bit of time into this, and test the different ways in which this could work.
much respect. even though i have a PC and i do PC my jars, it can never hurt to know other ways to make this hobby work.
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You mess with the shark young man, you get the shark!
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Wing
The Eye Tyrant
Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 3,293
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: dontkillthedj]
#15102816 - 09/19/11 07:23 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm going to be one of those "nay-sayers" 
I have no problem with the amount of time vs. amount of jars I do in a PC. I know it'll work. It's worked EVERY time. PEROXIDE WILL NOT STERILIZE ANYTHING. Period.
Could it work? Maybe.
Work every time? Nope
Will you lose a helluva lot more jars? Definitely.
Worth the trial and error for the same results? Nope.
Here's a test. Dip your finger in peroxide and dab it in some agar in a petri dish. I guarantee you will see all sorts of stuff growing in there within a few days.
Peroxide won't kill contamination. Contamination that's already in your grains or whatever growing medium you are using. Nor will it kill any contamination that find its way on or into your substrate. Except maybe some cobweb
This stuff has been tried before. There is a peroxide thread every few weeks about agar with peroxide or soaking grains. The OP never updates with "success! 50+ jars and counting!"If you want proven, steady, reliable results then you need to sterilize grains.
I'm not going to waste time or materials proving otherwise but I'd like to be proven wrong. 
This Dr. probably knows his shit. I'm not doubting that. I'm just saying for the average cultivator this will not fly. Not at all. I wonder how sterile this guys lab is and if he uses lab grade ingredients.
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My Old Grow Logs
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: mikesethnobotany]
#15103146 - 09/19/11 08:18 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mikesethnobotany said:
To all the nay-sayers, this guy doesn't want your nay-saying... get a new hobby if you are wanting to nay-say, because you are not being a beneficial part of this community right now. This H2O2 method of doing things has been used, just not well documented around shroomery.
Bull. This so-called 'tek' has been around for at least 15 years that I know of. It was bunk then, and nobody uses it because its still bunk today, and it always will be bunk. Peroxide has a purpose for cobweb control, but won't kill most mold. It's tough on the spores, but not on the mold mycelium itself.
This has all been gone over hundreds of times before. Feel free to fail again if you'd like. It's your time and your money. We're telling you it's a crap method.
Quote:
Wayne says, it needs to adapt up to 2 weeks. Somewhere else I read it only takes 1-2 days. In any case, you can just watch and see how the myc grows. Once it grows as fast as usual, it has adapted.
More crap. How long do you guys think peroxide lasts once exposed to the air and light?
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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Zerglingrush09
Stranger
Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 170
Loc: New york
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: RogerRabbit]
#15103199 - 09/19/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ok So I havnt read everything but I just did a test, Doesn't hydrogen peroxide weaken myc? So heres my test, Ive read throughout the forums that trich loves lower pH's. I usually will do my 2nd flush in a cap full of hydrogen peroxide in a bucket of water with out the fridge to stop bacteria bloom. This is cause i dont want to wait for it to regain temp and go onto a 2nd flush. But doesn't hydrogen peroxide even 3% have a lower ph? like around 6 or 7? The whole thing is since the move im in a older house. Ive gotten one ok flush out of 3 rounds and in the fruiting chamber im facing green mold.
This last round i was about to give up and research in why i keep getting green mold even when im giving my jars 2 weeks after 100% colonization in 75 degree incubating temps. 1 out of 8 jars began green molding, and i put a teaspoons of aquarium sodium bicarbonate into the water and misted down and got rid of my other cake. I haven't seen any green mold yet (fingers crossed)and all my cakes are fruiting even though they're taking some extra time.
So in theory even if you used hydrogen peroxide just to fight cobweb, wouldn't you want to buffer it to a more suitable ph so its not susceptible to trich? Im going to hold my breath and keep you guys updated. But maybe people facing green mold problems more than usual, should check into pH's?
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You annoy me, so fuck ya couch. I only use fungus for medicanal purposes, honest miss officer lady. Lets play make believe, your a pile of straw and I'm a mushroom, let me sporelate all in ya =D
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Zerglingrush09
Stranger
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Posts: 170
Loc: New york
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PC ing, Glove boxes, Flow hoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: Zerglingrush09]
#15103327 - 09/19/11 08:52 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Am i the only one whos looked into this? Lol I just think if your using hydrogen peroxide out of sterile conditions, you face more cotam problems with ph, that if you do trying to buffer your sub, than the problem of messing with you ph and it turning into salts and killing your myc.
This test leads me into making something more automated for FAE and chilling my dunks so not to have to mess around with my pH and face cob web or trich.....
RR i see you all around here, have you looked into pH's, correct me if I'm wrong, and its been 7 years since school. But hydrogen peroxide even 3% is around 6 making it alkalinity? Possibly even 5, Myc like a high 7 a little acidic, and Trich likes a 6 alkaline? Even if you wash you cakes under the faucet and you have soft water which most town and city water is your leaving it susceptible to trich.
Pure water 7pH Im thinking would me more suitable to having a dunk and re dunks especially leaving the ph more suitable for myc and not trich.
The reason i bring this up is Ive only faced cobweb and trich. Cobweb with not enough FAE usually when I'm away for extend period of time or company's over. And than I treat with hydrogen peroxide. Until I moved Ive really said fuck a cake if it gets cobweb because the meanie green usually follows and its a lost cause. So after this recent move when I started up Ive been dunking in h202 right after a week or two 100% colonization and one by one green mold strikes i think the only good flush i received I washed under the faucet the first time and i didnt have and hydrogen peroxide and dunked, and the 2nd flush I was like hey the weaker throw some hydrogen peroxide in there so they dont catch a cold!
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You annoy me, so fuck ya couch. I only use fungus for medicanal purposes, honest miss officer lady. Lets play make believe, your a pile of straw and I'm a mushroom, let me sporelate all in ya =D
Edited by Zerglingrush09 (09/19/11 09:07 PM)
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Sea_Goat
Strangest
Registered: 06/25/11
Posts: 143
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: Zerglingrush09]
#15103385 - 09/19/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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I wasn't aware that hydrogen peroxide had a low PH? Maybe you are thinking of bleach? Either way hydrogen peroxide is not good for your mushroom mycelium. I think you'd get better results without it. More fresh air is a good way to reduce contams in the fruiting stage.
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Zerglingrush09
Stranger
Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 170
Loc: New york
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: Sea_Goat]
#15103415 - 09/19/11 09:10 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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No hydrogen perxoide does the stuff you get for topical stuff liquid is 3%. which is a 6ph, hair bleach which is like 70% is in the 5's. Bleach i believe is more acidic. 7 is neutral you got to remember so below 7 you go alkiline above 7 you acidic.
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You annoy me, so fuck ya couch. I only use fungus for medicanal purposes, honest miss officer lady. Lets play make believe, your a pile of straw and I'm a mushroom, let me sporelate all in ya =D
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Zerglingrush09
Stranger
Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 170
Loc: New york
Last seen: 10 years, 26 days
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: Zerglingrush09]
#15103421 - 09/19/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Which would also make sense why it isn't good for your myc, because of the the pH is alkaline and myc prefer a little bit acidic. Let me double check what the myc likes.
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You annoy me, so fuck ya couch. I only use fungus for medicanal purposes, honest miss officer lady. Lets play make believe, your a pile of straw and I'm a mushroom, let me sporelate all in ya =D
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Zerglingrush09
Stranger
Registered: 07/11/11
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Loc: New york
Last seen: 10 years, 26 days
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: Zerglingrush09]
#15103435 - 09/19/11 09:16 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah 7.5 to 8.0 but thats with casings. But with a casing arnt you trying to get the myc, to colonize the casing before fruiting? Did I stumble onto something through random readings that needs to be really looked into in the battle against the greenie meanie?!?!?! 
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You annoy me, so fuck ya couch. I only use fungus for medicanal purposes, honest miss officer lady. Lets play make believe, your a pile of straw and I'm a mushroom, let me sporelate all in ya =D
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Zerglingrush09
Stranger
Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 170
Loc: New york
Last seen: 10 years, 26 days
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: Zerglingrush09]
#15103502 - 09/19/11 09:31 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Also also also more on topic. H202 may be beneficial to some species and disastrous to others. This should be something researched in the pH's of what species like. This guy your speaking of whos tried doing this might be working with a edible mushroom with no magic that does well in pH's around the h202 hes using and fighting off the contams its prone to. As far as my personal research its looking like Trich is the main contam against the magic in the fruiting stages.
So bringing the pH down to those levels looks like every time with out working in a totally sterile environment will be a total waste of energy and time. Which your theory is working without making anything sterile. So even if cubenis could adapt to growing with H202 your bring the battle grounds of Trich so much closer to the population. And asking it to adapt to being more tougher to Trich. Maybe if your working with gentics or generation of isolates that are tougher against Trich. But even heading down that road if your not going to study it research, and looking for failure after failure. I wouldn't attempt it.
What your really saying is your looking for less hassle way of doing this i hear you totally, but stick with what works. This hobby is depending on the species has its ways that work over and over and time and time again. And requires a little bit of patience which is a hard concept to get down trust me I know, I tried for 2 years walking away and trying again. Forgetting verm barriers, over heating, than my sterile procedures. Why go down a road toward numerous failures, if the goal for you it sounds is the outcome.
If this guy has even proven it I'd like to see what species he is studying, and I was under the assumption that agar work is done in sterile conditions.
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You annoy me, so fuck ya couch. I only use fungus for medicanal purposes, honest miss officer lady. Lets play make believe, your a pile of straw and I'm a mushroom, let me sporelate all in ya =D
Edited by Zerglingrush09 (09/19/11 09:38 PM)
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Meetzu
G̙̗͙̞̮͖̥a͉̭̹r̝̹͖̬d̞̮̻̪en̫̭e̱r̼
Registered: 11/22/10
Posts: 432
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Re: H2O2: Forget about PCing, Gloveboxes, Flowhoods, Filters - says this guy [Re: Zerglingrush09]
#15103580 - 09/19/11 09:46 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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You are confused on ph acid/base and have them backwards.
Most contams like slightly acidic (eg lower PH) which is why ph buffers or things that raise it are added to the casing, to deter them.
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