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Offlineshamanamba
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: The Influence]
    #15094347 - 09/18/11 01:38 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with The Influence's statement above. I can very visibly see the wetter areas in the substrate on each side of the jars. Maybe try and dry them a little by putting a fan in the incubation chamber for a few hours?


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OfflineThe Influence
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: shamanamba]
    #15094350 - 09/18/11 01:42 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I would take them out of the incubater all together, being in an enclosed area does not allow gas exchange. I just birthed 5 cakes that too me 2 weeks to fully colonize and then 1 week to consolidate, all the while on a shelf in a room out in the open.

If you start to see a discoloration in the substrate in little areas it could be a contam. If it just looks really moist I would leave it and wait. But I would really suggest putting them out in the open.

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OfflineDevolver
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: The Influence]
    #15094365 - 09/18/11 01:50 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I've always heard that the more starting points(spores) the mycelium has to expand from the faster it will colonize. The resulting increase of speed is negligible when compared to the potential they would have if utilized more efficiently though.

When you say, more spores competing to germinate would slow down the process, it implies less spores would speed up the process. Is that what you were implying?

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OfflineThe Influence
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: Devolver]
    #15094382 - 09/18/11 02:00 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Devolver said:
I've always heard that the more starting points(spores) the mycelium has to expand from the faster it will colonize. The resulting increase of speed is negligible when compared to the potential they would have if utilized more efficiently though.

When you say, more spores competing to germinate would slow down the process, it implies less spores would speed up the process. Is that what you were implying?



Yes that is what I am implying. Here is a thread on the matter, qouted from a trustd culitvator:http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7801101#7801101

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OfflineDevolver
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: Devolver] * 1
    #15094408 - 09/18/11 02:15 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote from your link:

"adding too many spores will first of all mess about with the water content of your substrate (too much water will slow down colonization) and having too many spores also creates lots of different substrains (as every two spores will mate creating different substrates). Some of those substrains can be incompatible and instead of merging will compete with each other instead, reducing yield."

It says having more spores can lead to potential incompatible substrains but that would imply that if you had 2 pairs they could still be incompatible, and we are only talking about reducing yield.

Regardless, wouldn't this excerpt still imply that more spores increases mycelium growth? Whether it's competing or merging its still growing and that was the original question wasn't it?

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OfflineThe Influence
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: Devolver]
    #15094425 - 09/18/11 02:33 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Devolver said:
Quote from your link:

"adding too many spores will first of all mess about with the water content of your substrate (too much water will slow down colonization) and having too many spores also creates lots of different substrains (as every two spores will mate creating different substrates). Some of those substrains can be incompatible and instead of merging will compete with each other instead, reducing yield."

It says having more spores can lead to potential incompatible substrains but that would imply that if you had 2 pairs they could still be incompatible, and we are only talking about reducing yield.

Regardless, wouldn't this excerpt still imply that more spores increases mycelium growth? Whether it's competing or merging its still growing and that was the original question wasn't it?



We are trying to figure out why OP's jars are not showing signs of colonization and you had stated that the amount of spore solution would not effect the jars, when it most defenitely will. I did re-read over some threads and you are right, having more spores will usually cause faster colonization, but only a day or two. That would be achieved by having a darker spore syringe though, as water content will be thrown off by using to many syringes, and that the OP definitely did.

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OfflineJaffyJaffar
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: Devolver]
    #15094426 - 09/18/11 02:34 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

How did you reach a conclusion that more is better from an excerpt that says more is not better

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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: JaffyJaffar]
    #15094431 - 09/18/11 02:39 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It is the water that is the concern, not too many spores.

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OfflineJaffyJaffar
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: Stropharis]
    #15094442 - 09/18/11 02:46 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

also if course verm was used then water content can be doubly off with the extra solution...with course verm you gotta use less water then 1 cup

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OfflineDevolver
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: The Influence]
    #15094451 - 09/18/11 02:50 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Hell, you could get a 4 pack of the same syringes, make sure you DON'T shake them up, expel 75% of the SOLUTION out of each of them, and then inject the remainder into each one of the 4 holes of a PF Tek jar and I still don't think it would be very noticeable considering the amount of variables we are working with. Not for a novice like myself anyway.

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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: Devolver]
    #15094465 - 09/18/11 02:57 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

One out of my 5 jars is stalled because it got more than 1cc of solution whereas the remaining got 1...plus I used course verm with 1 cup of water so my water content got all screwy

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OfflineThe Influence
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: Devolver]
    #15094467 - 09/18/11 02:59 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Devolver said:
Hell, you could get a 4 pack of the same syringes, make sure you DON'T shake them up, expel 75% of the SOLUTION out of each of them, and then inject the remainder into each one of the 4 holes of a PF Tek jar and I still don't think it would be very noticeable considering the amount of variables we are working with. Not for a novice like myself anyway.



I dont quite understand what you are saying? You were right that more spores will encourage faster colonization, but it is proven that too much water content will slow colonization considerably, and the OP definitely used to much solution.

Why would you spray out 75% of the solution? Even with out shaking the clear water in a syringe contains millions of spores.

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OfflineWing
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: The Influence]
    #15095624 - 09/18/11 12:22 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The verdict is still out without pics, but I'm still banking on possibly too much spore solution.

The Influence is correct. Too much spore solution will mess up your jars. 2-3 syringes for 12 jars is enough to fudge things up.

OP - don't fan 'em. Just set them out in the open, not in an incubator (unless its below 65f in your room).


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Invisiblebuffer
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: Wing] * 1
    #15095911 - 09/18/11 01:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Lets say he used 30cc between 12 jars vs 10cc between 12 jars.

-If he used 30cc he used 1.014 ounces of fluid between those 12 jars. That is 0.084 oz per jar.

-If he used 10cc for 12 jars he would have used 0.338 ounces of fluid between the 12 or 0.028 ounces per jar..

So he used an extra 0.056 ounces per jar (roughly 1.656cc) extra by using 30cc (3 syringes). This is all rough..assuming th esyringes were filled to exactly 10cc, and he used consistent amounts etc... Anyway.. using an extra 1.6ishcc per jar(2.5cc all together) is a bit of a difference. I feel like it's borderline it might not make or break someone but that is a bit of extra water content. 2.5cc is 0.084oz, which is then 0.055oz greater than .83cc (10cc between 12 jars or 0.028 ounces).

0.056oz is 1/26th of a 1.5oz shotglass. It's not THAT much fluid. I don't know if it is solely to blame for not seeing colonization.

Edited by buffer (09/18/11 01:23 PM)

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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: buffer]
    #15095921 - 09/18/11 01:23 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

buffer said:
Lets say he used 30cc between 12 jars vs 10cc between 12 jars.

-If he used 30cc he used 1.014 ounces of fluid between those 12 jars. That is 0.084 oz per jar.

-If he used 10cc for 12 jars he would have used 0.338 ounces of fluid between the 12 or 0.028 ounces per jar..

So he used an extra 0.056 ounces per jar (roughly 1.656cc) extra by using 30cc (3 syringes). This is all rough..assuming th esyringes were filled to exactly 10cc, and he used consistent amounts etc... Anyway.. using an extra 1.6ishcc per jar(2.5cc all together) is a bit of a difference. I feel like it's borderline it might not make or break someone but that is a bit of extra water content. 2.5cc is 0.084oz, which is then 0.055oz greater than .83cc (10cc between 12 jars or 0.028 ounces).

I don't know if it is solely to blame for not seeing colonization.




:congrats:

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OfflineBig Pappa
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Re: Not even a hint to colonisation 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: shamanamba]
    #15096061 - 09/18/11 01:47 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

When you injected the jars, did you aim the needle towards the outer glass of the jar??  or did you aim it towards the center of the jar??

I know this sounds silly, but if you inject in the center it takes longer to see noticeable growth.....


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Invisiblebuffer
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Re: Not even a hint to colonisation 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: Big Pappa]
    #15096856 - 09/18/11 04:27 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Big Pappa said:
When you injected the jars, did you aim the needle towards the outer glass of the jar??  or did you aim it towards the center of the jar??

I know this sounds silly, but if you inject in the center it takes longer to see noticeable growth.....



This is also a good point. It;s common practice to inject against the glass so you see visible growth at the earliest possible time.

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OfflineRusoQuintalis
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: buffer]
    #15097156 - 09/18/11 05:45 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I've followed the BF Tek videos quite closely, studying them for a while before I actually began. My cakes were twice the recommended size, inoculating with 1-2cc of Brazilian cubensis per cake.

The colonization started to show up around the 1-2 week mark, at 77-85F, damn heat waves! Even so, it progressed quite slowly compared to what many people talk about, patience is the key.

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Offlineshamanamba
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: RusoQuintalis]
    #15098388 - 09/18/11 09:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Alright everyone, thank you all for the great info! I'm back with the pics as promised.

I'll start out with my incubation chamber setup. I know the use of an incubation chamber has been discouraged already but I just like the environmental control it offers so I made a revision on it's design as follows.

The picture below is the first tub with water in it which is heated by a fish tank heater (variable temperature control)



The second tub goes into the water, thus conducting the temperature of the water to the inner tub. At this stage of assembly the chamber looks like this. The below picture also shows my jars as they have been places for the past 7 days now.



In light of the possibility of air exchange restrictions imposed by the chamber, I have installed in the lid a 5 volt fan from a spare PC power supply I had around the house. For now it's powered by batteries but I plan on rigging another spare power supply to run it eventually.



And Here's the whole thing put together.



And now, here's a few pics of a few of the jars. I was going to take a pic of each side of each jar but they all look about the same so here's just a few pics to get a general ideal.











I hope this helps you help me. If there's any other information or pictures you guys need, just let me know.


[EDIT] : :syringe: And yes, I made sure to inject the solution toward the sides of the jars. :syringe:


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Edited by shamanamba (09/18/11 09:51 PM)

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OfflineThe Influence
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Re: Not even a hint to colonization 5 days after inoculation (BRF cakes) [Re: shamanamba]
    #15098524 - 09/18/11 10:08 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Your jars are getting no gas exchange with the tinfoil on the top. And I dont know if the fan is good idea. There is a reason that incubators are not used that much anymore and that is because they are ineffcient. I don't know what else to tell ya except good luck :cheers:

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