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Offlineninjahedge
hedge made ofninjas

Registered: 04/14/03
Posts: 58
Loc: here nor there
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Define Life [Re: blaze2]
    #1507278 - 04/30/03 12:37 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

surely it's possible, for anything is. but my view is that they have no consciousness. you're entitled to your opinion, which i respect. thanks for the discussion all.


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ow, i poked my brain,
now it's leaking all over...
i guess it's ok


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Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Define Life [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1507297 - 04/30/03 12:43 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

getting back to the point, if you've ever taken a biology course you probably learned that for the most part, with a few exceptions - the following constitute life:

1. specific or complex organization
2. Metabolism
3. Homeostasis
4. Growth
5. Response to stimuli
6. reproduction (passing on genetic info)
7. adaptation (have ability to evolve)




As a Biologist, I can tell you that 2, 3, 4, 5, are wrong in terms of defining life... Not all living things have an active matabolism. Not all living things have the ability of homeostasis, i.e. reptiles. Not all living things grow; Bacteria never increase or decrease in size. Not all living things have a complex nervous system and thus cannot respond to stimuli.

What I'm looking for as a defintion of life is a concept that can devide what life is in nature and life that con be simulated on a computer program.


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OfflineSole_Worthy
Stranger

Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 463
Loc: over here
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Re: Define Life [Re: LeViTY]
    #1507400 - 04/30/03 01:21 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

In Reply to Levity:

"This," he said playing with it, "is a stone, and will, after a
certain time, perhaps turn into soil, and will turn from soil into a
plant or animal or human being. In the past, I would have said: This
stone is just a stone, it is worthless, it belongs to the world of the
Maja; but because it might be able to become also a human being and a
spirit in the cycle of transformations, therefore I also grant it
importance. Thus, I would perhaps have thought in the past. But today
I think: this stone is a stone, it is also animal, it is also god, it is
also Buddha, I do not venerate and love it because it could turn into
this or that, but rather because it is already and always everything


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get it all together get like birds of a feather


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Offlineninjahedge
hedge made ofninjas

Registered: 04/14/03
Posts: 58
Loc: here nor there
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1507738 - 04/30/03 03:18 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

As a Biologist, I can tell you that 2, 3, 4, 5, are wrong in terms of defining life... Not all living things have an active matabolism. Not all living things have the ability of homeostasis, i.e. reptiles. Not all living things grow; Bacteria never increase or decrease in size. Not all living things have a complex nervous system and thus cannot respond to stimuli.




which living things don't have metabolism? i believe reptiles also regulate internal cell environments by means such as membrane pumps i.e. sodium/potassium protein pump to maintain cell ion concentration and voltage gradients....while no they don't regulate body temperature internally, don't they still regulate this by physically changing their environment (shade vs sunlight etc?)...doesn't this qualify as homeostasis? I don't think by growth it necessarily mean size - rather progression from one cell stage to another in the cell cycle resulting in growth of the general population of that species - which don't bacteria do in the process of binary fission? and don't some bacteria incr/decr in size? Do you need a complex nervous system to respond to stimuli? do jelly fish have a CNS? no but yet they will sting prey when tentacles are stimulated.

anyway i am no degreed biologist but merely a student. the criteria i posted for life were those given to me by an established biology professor/scientist at a pretty reputable university. but i still think defining life in general is very objective, and to call any definition wrong outright (to me) seems quite silly, especially coming from a biologist. i'm not claiming that which i posted is true by anymeans, just providing another angle (purely scientific) to the discussion. i mean you no offense - thanks for your response.


--------------------
ow, i poked my brain,
now it's leaking all over...
i guess it's ok


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Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Define Life [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1507942 - 04/30/03 04:13 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not dicrediting your post. Yes you gave a scientific respose in terms of trying to define life. Before I graduated graduate shcool I was forced to define life many times and I would give an answer similar to the one you gave. My professors boggled over the biological definition for months not coming to any conclusion. In the end I did come across the definition of life. It's rather simple, more philisophical then scientiffic.


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Offlinekangoo
ONEVIBE

Registered: 08/12/02
Posts: 80
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1508249 - 04/30/03 05:46 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think Shroomism answered the question very cleverly!
I totally agree with him.
Another point is that, every thing that posesses some kind of consciousness,
past the second dimension, have their strongest impulse as the "will" to survive and grow stronger, better and more adapted.
They will do anything to survive. But here are us humans different, some of us will even commit suicide! That i do find weird. I have never heard of a plant or an animal commiting suicide?!? =)

And to Shroomism what are the other dimensions of consciousness?

PLUR =) =) =)


--------------------
Divine moments of truth occurs when watching
lucy in the sky with diamonds!


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: kangoo]
    #1508324 - 04/30/03 06:03 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

How did he answer the question cleverly?

"There are four levels of consciousness; mineral, plant, animal, human.. "

What does this quote even mean? Did you read his posts and actually think at all? You can't arbitrarily divide consciousness into categories like Earth, wind, and fire. Well..you can if you want, but it won't hold up in a real discussion because it's not based on anything other than whimsy.

"Another point is that, every thing that posesses some kind of consciousness,
past the second dimension, have their strongest impulse as the "will" to survive and grow stronger, better and more adapted."

Past the second dimension? Are you suggesting that there exists consciousness below the 2nd dimension as in a point? Please explain.

"But here are us humans different, some of us will even commit suicide! That i do find weird. I have never heard of a plant or an animal commiting suicide?!? =)"

Mother chimps sometimes starve themselves to death after the loss of an offspring.





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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1509093 - 04/30/03 10:36 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Rocks have consciousness, they are just not conscious. A rock exists, but it is not aware of its existance. A rock is.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509151 - 04/30/03 10:55 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

If it is not aware of it's own being, then it is not conscious. It is something else. I'll even let you make up another term for it. But it is not what we are talking about.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1509172 - 04/30/03 11:01 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Not from a human's ego perspective, no.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509184 - 04/30/03 11:04 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

That's what we are talking about. Consciousness from a human's perspective. Anything can be anything from anything's perspective. The color green is gray to a dog. X is Y to Z. If we followed your reasoning, it would be impossible to have an organized argument of anything. Because nothing would have a basis and that is a self-defeating train of thought. Toot toot.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1509201 - 04/30/03 11:08 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Don't think about the tree, be the tree.


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Offlineninjahedge
hedge made ofninjas

Registered: 04/14/03
Posts: 58
Loc: here nor there
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509317 - 04/30/03 11:35 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

sigh - they'll always have some vagueness to counter with eh, bert?


--------------------
ow, i poked my brain,
now it's leaking all over...
i guess it's ok


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1509321 - 04/30/03 11:36 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Don't think about the vagueness, ninjahedge. Be the vagueness.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1509381 - 04/30/03 11:48 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

If vague ye perceive, vague shall it be.

Life does not conform to the expectations of human ego.


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 521
Loc: on my way to another plac...
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Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509705 - 05/01/03 01:14 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

nor does the expectations of human ego conform to life.



--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
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Registered: 12/20/02
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Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1509840 - 05/01/03 02:00 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

do
or do not
there is no try

lol i cant help but read the last few posts and think about that. now yoda there was a guy who had it all figured out. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1510171 - 05/01/03 03:23 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

do "events" have consciousness?

edit(addition): or "processes?"


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/01/03 03:26 AM)


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Offlinekangoo
ONEVIBE

Registered: 08/12/02
Posts: 80
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Define Life [Re: Strumpling]
    #1510711 - 05/01/03 10:37 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Hey take it easy bert =)
Both you and Shroomism are right, it's just a question of definition of the term "consciousness".
You see it from the "human's ego perspective" (as Shroomism wrote).
For me Shroomisms definition is true.

To Bert:
"What does this quote even mean? Did you read his posts and actually think at all? You can't arbitrarily divide consciousness into categories like Earth, wind, and fire. Well..you can if you want, but it won't hold up in a real discussion because it's not based on anything other than whimsy."

You understand his quote, or YOU don't. You clearly do not understand what he is
writing, but thats ok, whatever makes you happy and peaceful Right? :wink:
Who are you to decide what a "real" discussion is? And what do you base your arguments on? Harcore facts, science, fantasy?

"Past the second dimension? Are you suggesting that there exists consciousness below the 2nd dimension as in a point? Please explain."

Yes! As I said I agree with Shroomism, and if you don't get it, there's really nothing more for me to explain. Maybe it's not the "consciousness" you define, but as I see it, yes! It does exist consciousness below the 2nd dimension, in the way Shroomism explained it.

"Mother chimps sometimes starve themselves to death after the loss of an offspring."

Then you taught me something, but I've never heard of a fish or a plant doing something like that. I still find it weird. =)

"Don't think about the vagueness, ninjahedge. Be the vagueness. "

Good one =)

Peace out ;P











--------------------
Divine moments of truth occurs when watching
lucy in the sky with diamonds!


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: kangoo]
    #1511309 - 05/01/03 02:14 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I understand what Shroomism is saying. Or rather I've 'felt' it. But I'm just not firmly or entirely convinced that is the only way you can view it. Personally, I think facts and science are more useful for talking about certain issues. If Shroomism could come up with a different vocabulary to describe what he's talking about, perhaps I could understand it better without being put off by the overall vagueness. I'm never content to settle on one thing, one belief. Always better to keep pushing ahead.


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