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Shop: Buy Bali Kratom Powder Cultivation Supplies Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order Kratom Capsules for Sale |
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vc77 incarnate Registered: 06/27/04 Posts: 1,302 Loc: PNW US Last seen: 3 years, 11 months |
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Quote: Some people aren't fortunate enough to leech off of mommy and daddys trust fund for college and a place to live. Moving out at 18 with a part time job and going to a community college was hell, and with the employment status here in Oregon, I was stuck. I needed money. I needed a home. I don't want your respect, I just want to be on my own two feet. Quote: Highly incorrect. HIGHLY incorrect. The army is not designed to kill people effectively, that is just an asset that makes defending and attacking executable and as proficient as possible. What do you expect them to teach, how to dodge bullets and win a war with super-human mind powers. No, you've got it all wrong. Every country has an army, and every army is tought how to fight as effectively as possible. It's been done since the dawn of time, in every part of the world. Support and thanks is not a right, it is usually earned, from people who have enough heart to understand things from a soldiers point of view. We do not want to kill people, that is a last resort for us. You think every soldier in Iraq is bloodhungry and agrees with the war? Wrong. Most of them were looking for a college scholarship and ended up overseas, only to find themselves counting the days until they go home. It's a job, you do what you are ordered, whether you agree or not. Your personal opinion is your personal opinion, and your job is your job. Whether your a drug dealer, a stripper, or a disgruntled middle age state worker, your never going to make money by complaining about what you are assinged to do. Period. Quote: Once again, I don't expect thanks from anyone. It is appriciated, but I don't expect shit from you. I'm a human being like you, who would be willing to sacrifice my life for YOUR American citizenship. Thank me or not, thats how it is. Quote: Once again, you've got the idea that everyone who joins the army is all about war. War this, war that. For us, it's creating a life, and as long as I have my own car to drive, my own place to sleep, and money in my bank account. I'm satisfied. If I am called to Iraq, I'll go, because I HAVE to, not because I'm bloodthirsty for some killing. To me, someone like that deserves more respect, because anyone can want to do something and do it, but someone who doesn't want to, and still does, is overcoming more. It saddens me that people are against people in the army. We are just like you, human beings, trying to make a living. I did not wish to attack you one bit in this thread, and I hope you understand where I am coming from...
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Fucknuckle Dog Lover Registered: 04/24/04 Posts: 6,762 |
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Quote:
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vc77 incarnate Registered: 06/27/04 Posts: 1,302 Loc: PNW US Last seen: 3 years, 11 months |
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Fucknuckle... I know this.
Quote: They do train how to kill effectively, but correct me if I am wrong, that is not the sole purpose of the army, which Odium junkie stated.
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OJK Stranger Registered: 06/08/03 Posts: 10,629 |
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vc77 said:
Quote: Ok, so you accept that soldiers are a hired killers, committing acts that you accept they don't want to for no more motive that getting a decent wage for it. You think you're the only person with financial troubles? Hell, most people who struggle through college don't enlist in the army, they get a normal job that doesn't involve killing people. Quote:Quote: The army is not designed to kill people, but is designed for "defending and attacking" ? How exactly do you "defend and attack" without killing people? I accept that the long term aims of the army are not simply to kill people, but the vast majority of the army's tasks are accomplished by killing people and most training recruits recieve is to promote, either directly or indirectly, the effective killing of other people. The fact that every country has an army doesn't change the fact that every army is primariliy designed to kill people. Quote: What the hell? Did you just compare being a soldier to being a drug-dealer? I guess that means you accept that soldiers are nothing more than hired killers who enlist and obey orders not because they have to but because they want the money. Until American reintroduces conscription, no-one has the right to claim that they have no choice but to obey orders, you always have a choice. As I've said before, the fact that soldiers in Iraq don't agree with the conflict makes their moral predicament worse, because then blatantly thier only motive is financial. Quote:Quote: IN WHAT WAY ARE SOLDIERS SACRIFICING ANYTHING FOR ANYONE'S AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP? Iraq poses no threat to America, soldiers are doing nothing for anyone's "citizenship". They should stop pretending they're being patriotic, the fact that you are willing to sacrifice your life for a war you yourself don't believe in is mystifying, not laudible. Quote:Quote:
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muse_sick ĤŌĿŶĞЋ0$Ŧ Registered: 12/15/03 Posts: 9,399 Loc: Giu La Testa |
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i say
"don't ask don't tell would never work for me if all the guys look as hot as you in their uniforms" that usually scares em away --------------------
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vc77 incarnate Registered: 06/27/04 Posts: 1,302 Loc: PNW US Last seen: 3 years, 11 months |
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Quote: My job doesn't involve killing people. I'm a visual imforation operator, basically your average cable guy, but for the army. Like I said, Oregon has the highest rate of unemployment in the nation, and the chances of finding anything other than a fast food job for a person with my credentials was slim to none. I'll say it again, I was hungry, housebroken, and couldn't handle it. Quote:Quote: If you use some grammatical comprehension, you will easily concur that I clearly stated that the KILLING is an asset to defend and attack, and is not the sole purpose of the Army. Here, let me break it down for you: "The army is not designed to kill people effectively, that is just an asset that makes defending and attacking executable and as proficient as possible." In other words, thats like saying your local police force is designed for putting people in jail. Even though thats how it may seem to you, it's not. They DO put people in jail, but that is the what it's designed for, they are simply there to enforce the law and protect the community. Your rushing to conclusions. Quote: Once again, you read wrong. I said that KILLING PEOPLE was a way to make defending and attacking as proficient as possible. Read it again, if it still doesn't make sense, read it again. Quote: Wrong, around 10% of the army is overseas fighting in a war, and less than 10% of them have actually killed people. Thats a little shy of the "vast majority" The rest are people working NORMAL jobs state-side. Let me help you out on this one: Multimedia Illustrator(25M) Cable Systems Installer-Maintainer(25L) Military Intelligence (MI) Systems Maintainer/Integrator(33W) Microwave Systems Operator/Maintainer(25P) Multi-channel Transmission Systems Operator(25Q) Network Switching Systems Operator(25F) Telecommunication Operator/Maintainer(25D) Cryptologic Linguist(98G) Counterintelligence Agent(97B) Imagery Analyst(96D) Intelligence Analyst(96B) Signals Intelligence Analyst(98C) Information Systems Operator/Analyst(25B) Multi-Sensor Operator(98P) Satellite Communication Systems Operator/Maintainer(25S) Signal Support Systems Specialist(25U) Signals Collector/Analyst(98Y) Signal Officer(25A) Warrant Officer Corps() Journalist(46Q) Visual Information Equipment Operator/Maintainer(25R) Multimedia Illustrator(25M) Euphonium Player(02C) Bassoon Player(02K) Broadcast Journalist(46R) Clarinet Player(02J) Cornet or Trumpet Player(02B) Electric Bass Guitar Player(02U) Flute or Piccolo Player(02G) French Horn Player(02D) Guitar Player(02T) Lithographer(21L) Oboe Player(02H) Percussion Player(02M) Keyboard Player(02N) Saxophone Player(02L) Trombone Player(02E) Tuba Player(02F) Army Bandsperson(42R) Civil Affairs Specialist(38A) Animal Care Specialist(91T) Firefighter(21M) Pharmacy Specialist(91Q) Dental Specialist(91E) Health Care Specialist(91W) Hospital Food Service Specialist(91M) Medical Laboratory Specialist(91K) Medical Supply Specialist(91J) Mental Health Specialist(91X) Mortuary Affairs Specialist(92M) Operating Room Specialist(91D) Optical Laboratory Specialist(91H) Patient Administration Specialist(91G) Preventive Medicine Specialist(91S) Radiology Specialist(91P) Veterinary Food Inspection Specialist(91R) Dental Corps Officer(63) Medical Corps Officer(62) Medical Service Corps Officer(67) Medical Specialist Corps Officer(65) Nurse Corps Officer(66) Veterinary Corps Officer(64A) M1 ABRAMS Tank System Maintainer(63A) Aircraft Electrician(15F) Aircraft Pneudraulics Repairer(15H) Aircraft Powerplant Repairer(15B) Aircraft Powertrain Repairer(15D) Aircraft Structural Repairer(15G) AH-64A Armament/Electrical Systems Repairer(15X) AH-64D Armament/Electrical/Avionic Systems Repairer(15Y) Bradley Fighting Vehicle System Maintainer(63M) Machinist(44E) Observation/Scout Helicopter Repairer(15V) OH-58D Armament/Electrical/Avionics Systems Repairer(15J) OH-58D Helicopter Repairer(15S) UH-1 Helicopter Repairer(15M) UH-60 Helicopter Repairer(15T) Utilities Equipment Repairer(52C) Aviation Operations Specialist(15P) Cargo Specialist(88H) Motor Transport Operator(88M) Parachute Rigger(92R) Railway Operations Crewmember(88U) Motor Transportation Coordinator(88N) Watercraft Operator(88K) APACHE Attack Heliocopter Systems Repairer(35K) Transmission and Distribution Specialist(21Q) Aviation Officer(15) Transportation Officer(88A) Radio Operator/Maintainer(25C) Construction Equipment Repairer(62B) Armament Repairer(45K) Artillery Mechanic(63D) Fire Control Repairer(45G) M1 ABRAMS Tank System Maintainer(63A) Quartermaster and Chemical Equipment Repairer(63J) Small Arms/Artillery Repairer(45B) Track Vehicle Repairer(63H) AH-64 Attack Helicopter Repairer(15R) Bradley Fighting Vehicle System Maintainer(63M) CH-47 Helicopter Repairer(15U) Railway Equipment Repairer(88P) Railway Section Repairer(88T) Watercraft Engineer(88L) Land Combat Electronic Missile System Repairer(35A) Light-Wheel Vehicle Mechanic(63B) Multiple Launch Rocket System Repairer(35P) PATRIOT System Repairer(35S) None of those jobs include killing people, and thats not all of them. Do some research man. Quote: Indirectly, I learned to kill people. I learned how to work as a team. I learned alot about myself. Does that mean I am a bloodthirsty trigger-happy rambo-motherfucker? Not at all, I'm your average, passive, friendly stoner, making something out of my life. Quote: Thanks for saying exactly what I said: "Every country has an army, and every army is tought how to fight as effectively as possible." Quote: No, I was pointing out to you that the only way to make cash is to do your job. And thats exactly what being a drug dealer is, a JOB. Thats what being in the army is, a JOB. What's so incorrect about saying that? Quote: I'm alot more than a hired killer, and so are the thousands of other soldeirs. There is always that bunch of people who want to fight. I would say about 1 in 50 are like that. Everyone else just wants to get paid. Are you saying that doing your job because you want the money is wrong? Not everyone likes their job man, if money wasn't an issue on earth, I don't think very many people would work. Think about it. Quote: Its called violation of contract, and will land you in jail, and make it hard for you to find a good-paying job for the next 7 years of you life. Quote: I think SURVIVAL is a pretty strong motivater. Quote: You have a problem with reading. I said I would sacrifice my life for your freedom. Quote: I wasn't even talking about Iraq dude. I've said before, I do not agree with with the war, so all you are doing is agreeing with me. And the fact that I am willing to sacrifice my life in a war I don't believe in is not "mistifying", it is your mis-comprehension of my words. Read carefully before you reply man. Quote: Of course no one is holding a gun to my head. You obviously do not know how serious a breech of contract is in the military. You can't just say "Nahh, I'll pass this time, but good luck anyway!" Quote: You have manifested this idea in your head that every single job in the army consists of COMBAT and KILLING. Once again, do some research. And to me, it is creating my life. I can finally go to a good college and get the degree I need. I can finally feed myself well. I have job which is going to give me valuble experience when I get out. That justifies itself enough for me. I want nothing more than stability in my life. Quote: Oh okay! Let me just pull a company name out of a hat and I'll start next Monday. Quote: Whats with you and justification. Your basically telling me that being a soldier is evil. You really have no clue what responsability rests upon us. Quote: True. But assasination is taking the life of an unprovoked person. I'm starting to get the Idea that you have never looked into any of the jobs in the military. Your saying all of this as if everyone of us goes to Iraq, and kills women and children for money. Wrong. Some of us fix your cars. Some of us make webpages. Some of us look at satellite images. Some of us are docters. Some of us drive buses. Some of us play instruments for a band. Get your facts straight man. Quote: Thank you for not making this into a flame war. I'll be waiting for your reply.
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DoctorJ Registered: 06/30/03 Posts: 8,846 Loc: space Last seen: 1 year, 4 months |
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I'm with you, man. Fuck the military.
this reminds me of an old post I made in PA&L: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post2454319
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kadakuda The Great"Green".......East Registered: 05/21/04 Posts: 7,048 Loc: Asia Last seen: 6 years, 2 months |
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im shocked they actually do this. i thought the 911 movie was jsut a gross exageration of what happened. i never have even considered that could be real. so are they really THAT bad?
if all else fails tell them your canadian. that would stop all discussion ASAP. -------------------- The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
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KidShelleen watch thesensati Registered: 09/20/04 Posts: 88 Last seen: 17 years, 1 month |
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The military does not deploy itself. If you don't like what the military does, change the government. It is senseless and unfair to blame the soldiers for the invasion of Iraq. Did they volunteer? Sure. But is it really voluntary when the government fucks up the economy so badly that the only way you can feed yourself is by "volunteering"? Or how about the volunteers who bought into the government propaganda and lies and truly believe that American freedom is at stake in Iraq? Should they be insulted and spit on because they are gullible? I don't think so.
ALL of the blame belongs on the government who deployed the troops. We should not rely on soldiers to make foreign policy decisions. That is the job of the meatheads in DC and they are screwing it up royally, and have been for decades. Show them the door. KS -------------------- "Who would be free themselves must strike the blow" -Lord Byron
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TenaciousFloyd Stranger Registered: 10/05/04 Posts: 76 |
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I have no friends and no one to talk to. If a recruiter starts talking to me, it would probably be the highlight of my day.
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BillytheKid Forgeddaboudit! Registered: 10/18/04 Posts: 149 Loc: Connecticut Last seen: 19 years, 2 months |
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Quote: Hilarity, you hate Bush and the way the system is going but you vote for Nader, good job. -------------------- Bingo!
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silversoul7 Chill the FuckOu Registered: 10/10/02 Posts: 27,301 Loc: mndfreeze's pupp |
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Quote: What's so hilarious about it? Do you really believe Kerry is not part of the system?
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OJK Stranger Registered: 06/08/03 Posts: 10,629 |
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Quote: I can see how it?s easy to assume that those jobs don?t involve killing people, but if you examine them, you see how facile an argument that is; Artillery Mechanic PATRIOT System Repairer Multiple Launch Rocket System Repairer Bradley Fighting Vehicle System Maintainer These kind of jobs do not involve directly killing people, but clearly they facilitate the killing of people: the vast majority of jobs in the army to contribute the army?s ability to kill people, whether it?s refueling fighter jets, analyzing satellite photos, maintaining communications or one of any of thousands of tertiary army positions; without them, the army would be unable to operate. Repairing missile systems is quite patently contributing to the army?s ability to kill people, i.e. the pilots and crew of enemy aircraft. The army is a machine geared up to killing people, and almost every job in the army contributes to this ability. Quote: That?s like saying ?a car engine isn?t designed to drive the wheels, that?s just an asset that makes moving the car as proficient as possible?. The police force is designed to put people in jail; yes, it?s designed to enforce law and order, but in order to accomplish that, it must be able to arrest people, so it must be designed to be able to arrest people: de?sign v. de?signed, de?sign?ing, de?signs v. intr. 1. To make or execute plans. 2. To have a goal or purpose in mind. 3. To create designs. Clearly, if the army is, as you say, designed to defend and attack, and you accept that killing people is an intrinsic part of what constitutes defending and attacking, then the army must, in order to accomplish the goal of defending or attacking, pursue the goal of killing people, so must be designed to kill people in an effective manner. Quote: I?m confused: Quote: To me, those things are more or less mutually exclusive. Of course, most soldiers are not bloodthirsty: In my opinion, most are confused young men who are trained in a fashion as to overcome their basic moral conscience. They are programmed to kill without thinking when instructed. Quote: The comparison seems to completely ignore the issue: of course being in the army is a job, but that doesn?t somehow justify the actions of soldiers. Executing jews in Nazi Germany was also a job, that doesn?t make it right. Quote: I don?t for a minute imagine that most soldiers want to kill people, but that doesn?t address the fact that they do. Quote: There is a world of difference between not liking a job, and disagreeing with the ethics of the actions a job demands. There is clearly nothing morally wrong with doing a job you don?t enjoy for money, but there is something wrong with doing a job you disagree with morally for money. Quote: Soldiers sign up for the army volountarily and know as they do that that that might legally require them to do things such as killing people. They have a choice. Quote: Using the ?survival? argument to justify soldiers in Iraq shooting people is like saying if a burglar breaks into someone?s house, the owner of the house threatens that burglar with a gun so the burglar shoots the owner of the house, the act of the burglar shooting the owner was moral and just, when clearly it is not. Quote:
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vc77 incarnate Registered: 06/27/04 Posts: 1,302 Loc: PNW US Last seen: 3 years, 11 months |
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This conversation isn't going anywhere, and for the both of us it probobly seems like trying to describe color to a blind person.
I haven't been in your shoes, and you haven't been in my shoes. To me, in my shoes, the military was a great choice, and has done nothing but benefit me so far. I do not feel like I am doing wrong, infact, I feel like I am doing good with my life. I feel that I am moving in a positive direction. To you that direction is nothing but slaughtering people, but to me, it is getting an education, holding a job, traveling then US, and making my own money. When I go to work every day and preform maintenance on television receivers/moniters and cameras, I do not feel regret, and I do not feel like I am killing people. When I work with synchronous generators, distribution equipment and amplifying equipment, I do not feel regret, and I do not feel like I am killing people. When I plan and design production scenery, graphics and special effects, I do not feel regret, and I do not feel like I am killing people. When I follow script and instructions of film or television directors to move cameras, zoom, pan or adjust focus, I do not feel regret, and I do not feel like I am killing people. To you, I should feel regret, and I am killing people. I am pretty sure you feel when I goto my college classes every week I am killing people as well. I do not feel that way. I feel great about my self, and I have worked very hard to get where I am. I am proud of myself, and even if no one else is, I'm still satisfied. Thanks you for the debate, it was fun.
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umpatan Stranger Registered: 11/13/09 Posts: 5 Last seen: 12 years, 5 months |
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That is against the USMJ and insubordination an offence to do that to those who are above you in rank.
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nooneman Registered: 04/24/09 Posts: 14,664 Loc: Utah |
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Quote: This thread is SIX YEARS OLD.
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SpiritualSnorkel Registered: 06/18/06 Posts: 1,545 |
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ahahaha, i love it
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Visionary Tools Registered: 06/23/07 Posts: 7,953 Last seen: 1 year, 9 months |
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What the shit?
--------------------
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Shop: Buy Bali Kratom Powder Cultivation Supplies Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order Kratom Capsules for Sale |
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