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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineDZ74
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The Origin Of Birds?
    #15088150 - 09/16/11 04:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This a question that boggles me...
Birds supposedly come from Dinosaurs, and Dinosaurs were cold blooded reptiles...so does that make all birds technically reptiles specifically living dinosaurs? And if that's the case, how are birds warm blooded?
Chickens supposedly come from the T-rex, Turkey the Raptor. Idk I think it's crazy thinking about...Any thoughts, opinions, or clarifications?


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: DZ74]
    #15088231 - 09/16/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I, too, am astounded by this.

Was your question spurred by the recent finds of fossilized dinosaur feathers that have been in the news?

Speaking from the totally intuitive standpoint of someone who has forgotten how birds and mammals regulate their endothermia (if I ever learned it in the first place), it doesn't seem that astounding to me  that a beast could evolve the metabolism to support a higher body temperature.

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OfflineDZ74
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: Me_Roy]
    #15089683 - 09/16/11 10:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Me_Roy said:
I, too, am astounded by this.

Was your question spurred by the recent finds of fossilized dinosaur feathers that have been in the news?

Speaking from the totally intuitive standpoint of someone who has forgotten how birds and mammals regulate their endothermia (if I ever learned it in the first place), it doesn't seem that astounding to me  that a beast could evolve the metabolism to support a higher body temperature.




It's jus not enough proof but I could possibly see slight resemblance. But it's somewhat absurd thinking that the great everday american dinner butchered to death in a gruseome manner in a fucked up proccess used to be the biggest baddest dude in the dino-world ruiling this bitch with a iron fist. Shit's crazy and makes me re-question the history we are told a little bit. It just make me think a little bit about What's Really Going On Out Here Broez? Lol Seriously dude.


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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: DZ74]
    #15090164 - 09/17/11 12:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It's not like the mighty t-rex became the dinner table turkey.

There were plenty of smaller, less thunderous lizards running around at his feet.  It would have been one (or more) of these genetic lines that became the birds of today.

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Offline5HTSynaptrip
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: Me_Roy]
    #15090932 - 09/17/11 08:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Feathers are believed to be an evolved form of a scale due to the prevalence of beta-keratin.  Dawkins explains how something like this occurs really well in "The Greatest Show on Earth."  There are no hairpin-like changes that lead to extant classes like Aves.  There probably was one major evolutionary event that made it possible for speciation to occur, and with a feather that is a novel, advantageous adaptation in a lot of situations, physical boundaries may be more easily overcome.


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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OfflineDZ74
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #15091644 - 09/17/11 12:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

5HTSynaptrip said:
Feathers are believed to be an evolved form of a scale due to the prevalence of beta-keratin.  Dawkins explains how something like this occurs really well in "The Greatest Show on Earth."  There are no hairpin-like changes that lead to extant classes like Aves.  There probably was one major evolutionary event that made it possible for speciation to occur, and with a feather that is a novel, advantageous adaptation in a lot of situations, physical boundaries may be more easily overcome.




Well, I know that for a long time they thought that raptors had the typical reptile skin, later research shows that they had feathers and may had the ability to jump high and possibly glide. (Something turkeys can do to a slight extent)
So if this is the case then



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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: DZ74]
    #15091910 - 09/17/11 01:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DZ74 said:
Quote:

5HTSynaptrip said:
Feathers are believed to be an evolved form of a scale due to the prevalence of beta-keratin.  Dawkins explains how something like this occurs really well in "The Greatest Show on Earth."  There are no hairpin-like changes that lead to extant classes like Aves.  There probably was one major evolutionary event that made it possible for speciation to occur, and with a feather that is a novel, advantageous adaptation in a lot of situations, physical boundaries may be more easily overcome.




Well, I know that for a long time they thought that raptors had the typical reptile skin, later research shows that they had feathers and may had the ability to jump high and possibly glide. (Something turkeys can do to a slight extent)
So if this is the case then






Moreover, raptors were nowhere near as big as they made them out to be in Jurassic Park.  In fact, they would have been closer in size to a big honking tom turkey.

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Offlinehidenseek
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: Me_Roy]
    #15095702 - 09/18/11 12:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

did all birds evolve from the same dinosaur?

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InvisibleMe_Roy
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: hidenseek]
    #15095734 - 09/18/11 12:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hidenseek said:
did all birds evolve from the same dinosaur?




I don't think this would necessarily be the case.

I'm not under the impression that they'd have the phylogenetic tree so closely modeled as to be able to say one way or the other.

I think that more than one kind of dinosaur was believed to have had feathers.  And I know from playing Dinosaur Dig that two major categories of dinosaurs are 'bird-hipped' and 'lizard-hipped.'  I imagine that there was a large-ish gray area between dino and bird, and then some window in which the the organisms in that gray area either had what it took to make it, or they didn't.

Disclaimer (in case it's not totally obvious): I am not a scientist!

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InvisibleJake McBaked
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: hidenseek]
    #15096884 - 09/18/11 04:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hidenseek said:
did all birds evolve from the same dinosaur?




I believe our current concept of evolution would lead us to assume so.

One dinosaur slowly developed mutations that proved to be favorable and therefore it survived while differentiating from its dinosaur relatives. Eventually, these differences amounted to a speciation event where a new species was formed that could no longer be "classified" as a dinosaur. Many links in the chain are missing to say for sure, but if you have a belief in evolution than this is the common concept of what would have happened.

Additionally, mammals (like you and me) have all evolved from reptiles as well.

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Offlinehidenseek
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: Jake McBaked]
    #15097034 - 09/18/11 05:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Additionally, mammals (like you and me) have all evolved from reptiles as well.




reptile like thing

lemur  like thing

monky like thing



smartass like thing :docbrown:

thats are evolution right?

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OfflineDZ74
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: hidenseek]
    #15097084 - 09/18/11 05:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

We are the reptilians! Shit I knew it! lol
Quote:

hidenseek said:
Quote:

Additionally, mammals (like you and me) have all evolved from reptiles as well.





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Edited by DZ74 (09/18/11 05:29 PM)

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InvisibleJake McBaked
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: hidenseek]
    #15098093 - 09/18/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

thats are evolution right?



:trolldance:
yes exactly but first we were the fish like thing

Edited by Jake McBaked (09/18/11 09:00 PM)

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Offlinefantasticfungus
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: Jake McBaked]
    #15111647 - 09/21/11 12:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Jake McBaked said
Quote:

yes exactly but first we were the fish like thing




Yep Jake, Way back when, when we was all "swim" :smile:

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: DZ74]
    #15121907 - 09/23/11 09:45 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DZ74 said:
This a question that boggles me...
Birds supposedly come from Dinosaurs, and Dinosaurs were cold blooded reptiles...so does that make all birds technically reptiles specifically living dinosaurs? And if that's the case, how are birds warm blooded?
Chickens supposedly come from the T-rex, Turkey the Raptor. Idk I think it's crazy thinking about...Any thoughts, opinions, or clarifications?




what evidence is there to support the claim that dinosaurs were cold blooded?


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Offlinefantasticfungus
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #15121993 - 09/23/11 10:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

There's plenty of evidence that they were warm blooded, one being that they wore feathers to keep the heat in.

One piece of evidence that dinosaurs might have been cold blooded is the huge proportions their body's reached, a hot blooded T-Rex is going to have to eat ten times as many Triceratops as a cold blooded T-Rex just keeping his tootsies warm and the boffins ain't sure there was enough Triceratops around to actually feed the surprisingly large numbers of T-Rex as indicated by the fossil record, its called predator to prey ratio.

Another is that the enormous gut in the massive herbivore's like Braciosaurus filled up with five tons of fermenting vegetable matter worked as an internal heater and kept these giants warm.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: DZ74]
    #15122159 - 09/23/11 10:58 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DZ74 said:
This a question that boggles me...
Birds supposedly come from Dinosaurs, and Dinosaurs were cold blooded reptiles...so does that make all birds technically reptiles specifically living dinosaurs? And if that's the case, how are birds warm blooded?





Probably for a similar reason that though we evolved from bacteria we're a bit better at regulating our body temperature than they are.

Nevertheless, I thought that rather than birds coming from dinosaurs, per se, that both dionsaurs and birds were evolved from reptiles.  Some dinosaurs are more birdlike than others, and some seemed to evolve to become closer to the more birdlike dionsaurs despite having no relationship with them or birds. 

This is a timely question though, as September is National Velociraptor Attack Awareness Month- are you doing your part to raise awareness?

http://www.velociraptors.info/

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The Origin Of Birds? [Re: fantasticfungus]
    #15122301 - 09/23/11 11:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fantasticfungus said:
There's plenty of evidence that they were warm blooded, one being that they wore feathers to keep the heat in.

One piece of evidence that dinosaurs might have been cold blooded is the huge proportions their body's reached, a hot blooded T-Rex is going to have to eat ten times as many Triceratops as a cold blooded T-Rex just keeping his tootsies warm and the boffins ain't sure there was enough Triceratops around to actually feed the surprisingly large numbers of T-Rex as indicated by the fossil record, its called predator to prey ratio.

Another is that the enormous gut in the massive herbivore's like Braciosaurus filled up with five tons of fermenting vegetable matter worked as an internal heater and kept these giants warm.




you havnt supplied plenty of evidence. In fact, your first sentance is evidence for the claim that dinosaurs were warm blooded. How many cold blooded creatures do you know with hair/feathers? none. How many warm blooded creatures do you know with hair/feathers? all of them.

As for your second point, i found this reasoning to be quite sensible when i first heard it. However since then I have realised it is based on the false dichotomy between warm and cold blooded creatures. Creatures could have any temperature. assuming evolutionary theory is correct, it makes more sense that a partially warm-blooded group of creatures (dinosaurs) evolved into very warm blooded and cold blooded creatures,
rather than
a cold blooded group of creatures rapidly evolving into two types of warm blooded animal.

According to this theory, the cold blooded creatures of today exist simply because they could survive without their body heat. They survived in areas where conditions were optimal for cold blooded creatures, and so when the other (un-optimal) dinosaurs (most of them) died out, some survived by saving energy on heat production and simply living the life of a reptile. Birds and Mammals on the other hand were from the dinosaurs that needed to adapt in conditions where only warm blooded creatures survived.

Creatures may have begun evolving body heat as soon as they ventured from the ocean to strange external conditions including massive shifts in temperature which are not felt in the ocean. It would not have been easy for creatures to live as cold blooded animals until they had developed specialised skin and behavioral patterns which lead it to prepare itself for times of cold by eating at the right time and finding the right places to relax at night time. Otherwise they would be easy prey to any warmer animals which have evolved mechanisms to produce just a tiny bit of heat...the 'battle' would be on, so to speak, as soon as the animals left the ocean.

When in the ocean, warm bloodedness is a waste because your heat will be lost quickly to the ocean. However, air is a good insulator compared to water, and you will lose less heat to air than to water. So leaving the ocean was an important hurdle in allowing animals to start producing heat, raising their temperature to higher levels in order to gain advantages over their competition.


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