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OfflineHrethic
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New Strains, Straight Forward Answers
    #15075469 - 09/13/11 09:19 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

About creating a new "strain". First off, I'm not sure if this is even an appropriate name.



What i really mean, is that everyone seems to agree on 3 or 4 totally separate ideas.. here we go..

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/66332

from a decade ago, stating a very scientific sounding theory about gametes and isolate mycelial stuctures. From it, it sounds to me like ANY strain, as long as they are infact cubes, can and will ALWAYS grow and form different "strains"


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8797647&fpart=all

from 3 years ago, from one of the professionals himself

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Do it. (in regards to injecting two strains into one jar)  You'll be injecting hundreds of 'strains' with each injection anyway, regardless of the name on the syringe.

Remember, when hyphae from two compatible spores meet up and exchange genetic information, a strain is born.  When you inject 1 ml of solution from a spore syringe, you perhaps inject 50,000 or more spores.  Imagine all the strains created.  Since cubensis is a species, spores from many strains are going to be compatible. 

Through a process called anastomosis, the strains generally merge into a common whole as clamp connections form between mycelium from various strains.  Non-compatible strains will often grow and fruit separately, giving a flush of distinctly different mushrooms.
RR




Here he seems to stating two arguments at the same time, though it's all in the text. "Compatible strains." It almost seems from what he's saying is that they are not really strains of a species in the first place, but more so sub-species. If you run into one subspecies called B+ and the other called Malabar and they happen to join up and NOT be of the same subspecies, they won't mate and a hybrid won't form. Yet... that's exactly what he says does happen in the first sentence of that post.. right?

"Do it. (in regards to injecting two strains into one jar)  You'll be injecting hundreds of 'strains' with each injection anyway, regardless of the name on the syringe."

yet..

"Through a process called anastomosis, the strains generally merge into a common whole as clamp connections form between mycelium from various strains.  Non-compatible strains will often grow and fruit separately, giving a flush of distinctly different mushrooms."

So, from RR, the strains have to be compatible. Which would mean to me, in regards to the first link, that they are not strains at all, but at the VERY least, a SUB-species. Maybe a B+ and a Malabar are the same subspecies, so they would go together and create a new strain. But maybe B+ and Penis Envy are not the same subspecies, so they would always compete.



And then, at the other end, i find posts EVERYWHERE on here with many many people stating that you will NEVER EVER get a hybrid strain, new strain, subspecies, what ever you want to call it, because they will simply fight and the best one wins.


So those are the three stances, and more than all of those, it's a completely baffling subject, because there doesn't seem to be answers we can all agree on, like, for instance, the fact that Cubes enjoy Horse manure. We all know it, it's a fact.


So what are the facts on making a new strain? I would tend to believe it's closer to what the first post was talking about, because i can find a few more posts and information sources that point towards mushrooms, and a lot of fruiting mushroom species in general, to be sexual in nature (needing TWO parents) and not asexual (only one). This also fits nicely into what RR said about multispore injections.

BUT, only having less than an associates degree worth of biological training/knowledge, I'm not going to trust my dissection of this material (get it? pun, i know). So do we have some Trusted Cultivators, and maybe some Biology majors or at least minors in here that can shed some real light on this?

And just before someone asks, I'm in no position right now to create a new strain, and i have no intention of trying, but i love learning, and this is a very interesting topic.


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Offlinemustardtiger
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: Hrethic]
    #15075766 - 09/13/11 10:15 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

hmmm.... once i mixed golden teacher and treasure coast while spawning to bulk. the fruits from that tray were mostly "hybrids" of gt and tc, but a small portion of the fruits were distinctly gt or tc. i am not shure of the science behind this, but this seems to back up RRs statements.


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InvisibleeLShaMukO
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: mustardtiger]
    #15076066 - 09/13/11 11:40 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Do it. (in regards to injecting two strains into one jar)  You'll be injecting hundreds of 'strains' with each injection anyway, regardless of the name on the syringe.

Remember, when hyphae from two compatible spores meet up and exchange genetic information, a strain is born.  When you inject 1 ml of solution from a spore syringe, you perhaps inject 50,000 or more spores.  Imagine all the strains created.  Since cubensis is a species, spores from many strains are going to be compatible. 

Through a process called anastomosis, the strains generally merge into a common whole as clamp connections form between mycelium from various strains.  Non-compatible strains will often grow and fruit separately, giving a flush of distinctly different mushrooms





Quote:

But maybe B+ and Penis Envy are not the same subspecies, so they would always compete.


no,RR explains it very in that post

keep in mind that some of the post you are reading are 10+ years old

the only thing you can get from mixing spores from different prints is genetic variety ''giving a flush of distinctly different mushrooms'' like RR said

Quote:

when hyphae from two compatible spores meet up and exchange genetic information, a strain is born




you can do this and call your strain what ever name you like :thumbup: or find a wild cubensis and domesticate it :shrug: and call it Hrethic's super cubensis :cool:

if you start from spores again your strain is lost, and the name of the strain just becomes a way to identify your print.


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InvisibleStropharis
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: mustardtiger]
    #15076105 - 09/13/11 11:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I am no TC and no Mycologist but like you, I tackled this site in search of the same answers you are looking for and like you, I ran into thread after thread of unorganized and conflicting data. I prefer to simplify things and not get too wrapped up in the terminology so I use them in the broadest sense. For the purpose of this post I will use the following.

Species
Strain
Sub-strain

The way I look at it, every time you grow MS you are crossing sub-strains and yes if you inject spores from multiple different strains the compatibles will possibly cross. Although it would be nearly impossible to recognize the hybrid because cubes looks so similar and even single strains create such a range of phonotypes, you would never know. Also not all strains or sub-strains are compatible… the theory of breeding through nuclear migration; introducing one monokaryotic culture to an already existing dikaryotic mycelial network. Taking a lot of the guesswork out of crossing single cell cultures.

Currently I am working on gathering well preforming isolates from two separate ‘strains’ with the intent of crossing the dikaryons to create a ‘cross’ or ‘hybrid’. I will confirm it by looking for the third sector along the line of isolation on agar and F2 results.

Where I get lost is spore generation and trait sustainment with spore production. The hybrid spores create the F2, which should produce a wide range of phenotypes. So what is the F3? And how does one push the traits down further generation to create a stable, well fruiting cross that produces spores.

So, my advice… Branch out and start reading on other sites and order books. It takes time to talk about this area and lately I get the impression that a lot of the more experienced folks aren’t willing. At the best I get a open ended sentence for an answer with a pinch of Tude.


Edited by Stropharis (09/14/11 01:10 AM)


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OfflineFuckMeRunnin
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: Stropharis]
    #15076120 - 09/14/11 12:02 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Actually when you fruit two different cube variations in the same tub you don't get a hybrid. The mycelium doesn't come together and create a hybrid, it grows along side one another and you will end up with some TC and some GT. So sorry mustard tiger it was all in your head.


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Invisiblewildernessjunkie
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: FuckMeRunnin]
    #15076169 - 09/14/11 12:33 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FuckMeRunnin said:
Actually when you fruit two different cube variations in the same tub you don't get a hybrid. The mycelium doesn't come together and create a hybrid, it grows along side one another and you will end up with some TC and some GT. So sorry mustard tiger it was all in your head.




Disagree.

You are just as liable to get compatible strains, as incompatible strains. The mycelium could go either way. A syringe of one "vendor strain" is not necessarily incompatible with any other. They are still the same species.

When you combine genetics of the same species, you end up with a combination of traits. When you mix P. Cubensis spores with P. Cubensis spores, you don't get a hybrid of anything. You get P. Cubensis. Now maybe there are some genetic traits that carry on, and maybe there isn't. But the fact is, if you look at it from a classification stand point, it will still be P. Cubensis. Each time a dikaryon is produced, it is a recombination of the genetics already present. Some traits will be stable (IE: Red boy, PE, AA+) and others will be random (IE: A whole slew of other "Strains").

Every time you fruit from a multispore inoculation, you get a new strain. They only way to preserve a single strain is to isolate, or potentially clone a single specimen. Once a spore print is taken though, the "strain" concept goes out the window. Though dominant genetics may prevail.


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InvisibleStropharis
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #15076225 - 09/14/11 01:01 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wildernessjunkie said:
Quote:

FuckMeRunnin said:
Actually when you fruit two different cube variations in the same tub you don't get a hybrid. The mycelium doesn't come together and create a hybrid, it grows along side one another and you will end up with some TC and some GT. So sorry mustard tiger it was all in your head.




Disagree.





:thumbup:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: FuckMeRunnin]
    #15077108 - 09/14/11 08:45 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

FuckMeRunnin said:
Actually when you fruit two different cube variations in the same tub you don't get a hybrid. The mycelium doesn't come together and create a hybrid, it grows along side one another and you will end up with some TC and some GT. So sorry mustard tiger it was all in your head.




Even if two strains crossed, which they often do, it wouldn't be a hybrid.  If a lady named Smith and a man named Jones had a baby, would you call it a hybrid?  No.  Taken farther, if a man from Japan and a woman from Africa had a baby, would it be a hybrid?  No, it would still be the same species, human.

There are no sub-strains.  A strain is a strain, period.  A strain is a pairing of compatible hyphae, not the name some idiot wrote on a print, the spores of which can create tens of thousands of individual strains.  When people get a print and call it a 'strain' I go batshit, because it only serves to spread disinformation.

This is why edibles are only sold as strains when an isolated single sector of mycelium is traded.  If you fruit a shiitake for example and take a sporeprint, your original strain is gone once you start growing from spores again.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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InvisibleStropharis
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15077234 - 09/14/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

FuckMeRunnin said:
Actually when you fruit two different cube variations in the same tub you don't get a hybrid. The mycelium doesn't come together and create a hybrid, it grows along side one another and you will end up with some TC and some GT. So sorry mustard tiger it was all in your head.




Even if two strains crossed, which they often do, it wouldn't be a hybrid.  If a lady named Smith and a man named Jones had a baby, would you call it a hybrid?  No.  Taken farther, if a man from Japan and a woman from Africa had a baby, would it be a hybrid?  No, it would still be the same species, human.

There are no sub-strains.  A strain is a strain, period.  A strain is a pairing of compatible hyphae, not the name some idiot wrote on a print, the spores of which can create tens of thousands of individual strains.  When people get a print and call it a 'strain' I go batshit, because it only serves to spread disinformation.

This is why edibles are only sold as strains when an isolated single sector of mycelium is traded.  If you fruit a shiitake for example and take a sporeprint, your original strain is gone once you start growing from spores again.
RR




I personally have read multiple similar posts either by you or others saying more or less the same and I am assuming the OP has as well. It is another reason I mentioned how we are using terms and stressed the importants of using them lightly. 

So what do you call it when someone control crosses two strains and chases the generations to a fruit of which produces spores that when grown out in MS result in fruits with the desirable traits of both of its parents and continues to do so?


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OfflineFuckMeRunnin
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: Stropharis]
    #15077481 - 09/14/11 10:33 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Honestly you guys shoot yourselves in the foot, and are not going to get very intelligent answers by referring to cubes, that have adapted to different environments or were artificially selected as strains. If you use the word strain at least put it in "strain". I still think what MustardTiger said was still all in his head. When I grow from MS, fruits from the same flush can look completely different from one another, so by putting two different "strains" in the same tub it is still impossible to tell if its a mix of the two because they are both cubes, and are so genetically diverse you will never no. So I stick to what I said. Disagree as you will.


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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10954174


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OfflineHrethic
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15078982 - 09/14/11 04:57 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

FuckMeRunnin said:
Actually when you fruit two different cube variations in the same tub you don't get a hybrid. The mycelium doesn't come together and create a hybrid, it grows along side one another and you will end up with some TC and some GT. So sorry mustard tiger it was all in your head.




Even if two strains crossed, which they often do, it wouldn't be a hybrid.  If a lady named Smith and a man named Jones had a baby, would you call it a hybrid?  No.  Taken farther, if a man from Japan and a woman from Africa had a baby, would it be a hybrid?  No, it would still be the same species, human.

There are no sub-strains.  A strain is a strain, period.  A strain is a pairing of compatible hyphae, not the name some idiot wrote on a print, the spores of which can create tens of thousands of individual strains.  When people get a print and call it a 'strain' I go batshit, because it only serves to spread disinformation.

This is why edibles are only sold as strains when an isolated single sector of mycelium is traded.  If you fruit a shiitake for example and take a sporeprint, your original strain is gone once you start growing from spores again.
RR





So taken one step farther with the example you use for humans, we don't have strains of humans, right? Even asian traits, african, hispanic or germanic traits are all just facets of being human. Every human can mate with any other opposite sexed human.

Yet with mushrooms there are truly distinctive, strains, that cannot interbreed with certain others? Or is it more like one true strain would be "equivilent" to one human, capable of interbreeding within the cubensis species (human species), but once done, you lose those specific traits that made that individual, and start to randomly select within the species traits that made up the parents.

And i know there can't be direct equivalencies between humans and fungus, just trying to grasp this from as many angles as possible. :wink:


Thanks everyone for all the responses too, so fast, i love this place.


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Offlinetrophycase
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: Hrethic]
    #15079105 - 09/14/11 05:24 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Ughghgh. Why are we even still calling them "strains?" Can we just officially change the false terminology to "variety" or something like that? Cubes are cubes. Any time two hyphae meet, you have a new strain. If you want to make your own strain, you can just select the traits you want from a species you already have. You can take prints and isolate, and if your new strain is highly varied from the variety you started with, then you can probably call it your own strain... Or isolate I guess.
Quote:

If you want to cross two strains(I'm using 'strain' in the sense it's usually used here, that is naming a print and calling it a strain), simply print one cap right on top of the print left by another cap.  By then using the resultant print, it would be nearly impossible to not get several crosses.  You'd want to do it on agar and isolate the strains as they differentiate, carefully labeling each one.  when you fruit them, you'll be able to tell which is a cross or not, provided you used two distinctly different parents.
RR




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OfflineNJBlah
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: Hrethic]
    #15079231 - 09/14/11 05:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

So if you lose the strain when you start from a print again, are all vendors selling prints of strains being deceptive?


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InvisibleeLShaMukO
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: NJBlah]
    #15079236 - 09/14/11 05:57 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

yes.


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Offlinemustardtiger
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: eLShaMukO]
    #15079389 - 09/14/11 06:32 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

i only used the term "hybrid" loosely to describe the mixture of physical traits displayed in some of the fruits. sorry for the confusion

FuckMeRunnin:
im quite certain that this was not "all in my head", if you doubt this so much maybe you should try to replicate what happened to me, make up three  separate growing mediums of your desire and then use two different so called "strains" and grow one of each and a then a mixture of the two. you should be able to tell the differences between the mixed and un-mixed genetics by the coloration and other physical traits of the mushrooms they produce.

if one were to obtain a cube variation that was truly non-compatible with other cubes then i believe  it would cease to be a cube and would be considered a new species, not 100% sure on that though


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OfflineJekkler
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: mustardtiger]
    #15079449 - 09/14/11 06:48 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

So when someone takes prints from say, penis envy, and makes a syringe, they inoculate, the correct terminology would be "with the penis envy variety"?  Because the penis envy spores still make mushrooms distinct to penis envy traits correct? Just several different strains within the penis envy variety of traits that have become dominate along a certain lineage of strains?

I have read that PE is a mutated strain IDK how that plays into this, but PE is just a place holder.... Replace with any variety and the same question is being asked..


Edited by Jekkler (09/14/11 06:49 PM)


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Offlinetrophycase
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Re: New Strains, Straight Forward Answers [Re: NJBlah]
    #15079516 - 09/14/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

NJBlah said:
So if you lose the strain when you start from a print again, are all vendors selling prints of strains being deceptive?



Lol. Sadly, yes... When you buy your spores, you end up growing tons of subvarieties in your grow... The tried and true varieties tend to come out about the same... You know, your classic types. Some of the newer "strains" are really just a coin flip with MS.


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