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Offlineentiformatie
EvolutionaryMovements
Male
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 1,043
Loc: miami, florida
Last seen: 13 years, 20 days
Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1504678 - 04/29/03 04:03 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

i disagree. we don't reproduce because we choose to.

i didnt just make up that procreation = conciousness. it's something i believe. kinda how you might believe in your own things.

and yes, i do believe that virus's are quite aware of their own existence. maybe unaware of the feelings of others tho, i dunno. but the way they thrive off of human life, and happen to destory it in the process definitely shows some kind of conciousness.

i find your example of using a man and a woman in a room a bad one. The only reason that they do not want to is society's inhibitions, and factors that humans made up, like ugly or pretty.

can you control the blood running in your veins? can you control your hormone levels (without funky pills)? no. even if you are concious, you don't have COMPLETE control over bodily functions. the same way a plant might not have control over the need to procreate. Maybe plants realize their species is dieing, and they don't give a fuck whether that elm next to them is hot as fuck.


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/opinion
.sean


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Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1504684 - 04/29/03 04:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Ok guys... you made some good points. Having the ablity to think or have consciousness is certainly not a precursor to defining life. Bateria, fungi and other single cell orgainims do no thinking at all, they simply act out what their DNA tells them to do. Many scientist actually believed to be alive an organism must be able to reproduce itself and pass along it's genetic information. Thus one could say that having a simple genetic code to pass along to offsrping is the answer to defining life. Well that's all well and good, BUT in 1999 and computer programer developed a program that simulated life and all ascpects of it. The computer bugs had a genetic makeup of binary language. They reproduced asexually and passed along their genetic make up to the next generation. In all respects, these computer criters ate, reproduced, mutated, consumed energy and space and died.

It was this very program that sent a shock wave through the biology comunity. Is this life? Can we define it as life? Or do we just need to redefine life as we know it?


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Phase 1... collect underpants... phase 2...??? ... Phase 3 - PROFIT!


Edited by djd586 (04/29/03 04:07 PM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Define Life [Re: entiformatie]
    #1504697 - 04/29/03 04:10 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

All life on earth has DNA.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1504756 - 04/29/03 04:27 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

We have certainly gotten off topic discussing consciousness when this thread is about life. What about self-replicating computer viruses? Hasn't this technology been around a bit longer than 1999? Computer viruses can replicate and pass along it's 'genetic information' and I think some can even adapt although don't hold me to that. I think life can exist in a purely virtual setting as long as it follows the guidelines of self-replication, passing along genetic information, and having the ability to adapt to its environment.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1505303 - 04/29/03 06:58 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

okay, if humans have consciousness, what is this consciousness composed of? chemical reactions?

and if plants do not have consciousness, and when we ingest them, and the chemicals they are composed of, which results in a new chemical reaction in our brain, are we not ingesting their consciousness?


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1505332 - 04/29/03 07:06 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think consciousness is chemical reactions alone. Nor is it simply electric signals from neurons. Nor is it simply biological tissue. Only when there is a highly intricate interplay between them all is there a coherent consciousness formed. For instance, you can eat a magic mushroom and have it affect your consciousness. That doesn't neccessarily mean it has it's own consciousness, it means that it is augmenting our consciousness. We defined consciousness as 'awareness of being'. The minute someone gets a magic mushroom to fill out a questionnaire regarding its existance, I'll acknowledge fungal and/or plant consciousness. I would be willing to venture that higher order primates have consciousness though and possibly dolphins? I don't know enough about that to make a serious claim, though.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Anonymous

Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1505400 - 04/29/03 07:25 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I would just say that life is really "a state of always changing"...that covers evolution and all forms of life. (ex: a flower blooming is always changing, it has life)


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Define Life [Re: LeViTY]
    #1505512 - 04/29/03 08:00 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

well LeViTY, that description includes anything in the universe, not just living beings.....

the moon is always changing; is IT alive?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1505552 - 04/29/03 08:12 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Are viruses alive? Some biologist want to exclued them from the life label.


--------------------

Phase 1... collect underpants... phase 2...??? ... Phase 3 - PROFIT!


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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
Male

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1505952 - 04/29/03 10:26 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

yes i think they are alive they may be the most primitive form of it but they are. they can reproduce and evolve so i think they are definately life although i have hear that argument.


"and yes, i do believe that virus's are quite aware of their own existence. maybe unaware of the feelings of others tho, i dunno. but the way they thrive off of human life, and happen to destory it in the process definitely shows some kind of conciousness. "

out they dont have a consciousness and that is for sure they dont know what they are doing and just cuase they destroy human life does not make them alive. if a combine rips a mans arm off does that make it conscious? it depends on us to put the gas in it, does that make it conscious? of course not only a moron would think so. life isnt dependent on consciousness but consciousness is dependent on life. thats my conclusion. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 521
Loc: on my way to another plac...
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Define Life [Re: blaze2]
    #1506191 - 04/30/03 12:12 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"anyways you used that quote did you ever think that maybe you should take it to heart and that maybe you're wrong? "

Sure, i belive those words very strongly and always give other peoples ideas a chance, but if i was to completley give up beliving anything, there would be nothing to argue, and that's no fun :smile: What i try to do is simply give a decent argument for what i feel is right, and see if somebody can convince me otherwise, if they can, great, that means i've learned something, and thats why i'm here. I only use the quote when it seems to me like someone has a concrete belife in thier head and won't even consider other possibilities no matter what the argument is. Nobody knows the answers, my friend, we just have ideas, I'm simply searching for the best ones.

"to quote swami i think it was you cant argue something on the point that it cant be proven to be wrong. you said PROVE that plants dont have a consiousness well thats impossible if it is not there to begin with. im not saying that its not but its not a viable argument"

Is Swami the guy who try's to tell people about thier bad argument teqniques? Don't quote that. please. You'll just encourage him.

I know he cant prove me wrong that way, i even said he couldent, I was simply trying to manipulate the argument, see if i could get him to try. Just trying to make the argument a little more interesting i guess. 


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1506213 - 04/30/03 12:20 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Without good arguing technique and logical reasoning/deduction, there would be no purpose for this forum and it would degenerate into a big circle jerk. It's the only way to properly develop an idea or have a discussion.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlineninjahedge
hedge made ofninjas

Registered: 04/14/03
Posts: 58
Loc: here nor there
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1506245 - 04/30/03 12:35 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

getting back to the point, if you've ever taken a biology course you probably learned that for the most part, with a few exceptions - the following constitute life:

1. specific or complex organization
2. Metabolism
3. Homeostasis
4. Growth
5. Response to stimuli
6. reproduction (passing on genetic info)
7. adaptation (have ability to evolve)

now this is a strictly scientific view as to what life is, and i'm not saying i agree with it, but it makes some sense. yes plants are alive, no they don't have consciousness, at least by my definition of that term. If you want to go and get all spiritual and hippy about it that's your deal, but i'm going to maintain that those buggers aren't conscious.


--------------------
ow, i poked my brain,
now it's leaking all over...
i guess it's ok


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 521
Loc: on my way to another plac...
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Define Life [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1506254 - 04/30/03 12:39 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

i'm going to maintain that i'm spiritual and hippy about it.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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OfflineGrav
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1506263 - 04/30/03 12:43 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

LIFE is a board game.



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OfflineGrav
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: Define Life [Re: Grav]
    #1506276 - 04/30/03 12:48 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

anyone ever think plants are like the hair on our skin? is our hair alive???
maybe the plants' have a consciousness that we can not see
i'll write a book about it and then call myself Rugbert SevenChins.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: Grav]
    #1506278 - 04/30/03 12:48 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

One of my favorites, although looking back on it now...it gave a very skewed and twisted view of what life should be.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineSole_Worthy
Stranger

Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 463
Loc: over here
Last seen: 1 month, 30 days
Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1506485 - 04/30/03 02:15 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Uh huh, life's like this:

And you fall and you crawl and you break and you take what you get and you turn it into honesty :grin:


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
Male

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Define Life [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1506615 - 04/30/03 03:14 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

yea i dont usually agree with the swamster but on that he DOES have a point.  also he wont be encouraged i think hes temporarily banned at the moment. 

ninja the point of this was to rethink what constitutes life not repeat what is already in the books.  those rules apply to our world and we have no way of knowing that they will be valid in an alien ecosystem(if such exist). 

ill aknowledge that there is a chance for plants to have consciousness(not atoms tho)  if you will aknowledge that theres equal chance that they dont.  and then we can forget about this argument that will never end :smile: peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 521
Loc: on my way to another plac...
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Define Life [Re: blaze2]
    #1506654 - 04/30/03 03:45 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

i can do that, it's been fun:grin:


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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