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OfflineBurblesV
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I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree?
    #15039685 - 09/06/11 07:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Why is it that everyone has the idea and opinion that discoveries now days cost tons of money to perform? I think that since the complexity of the world around us, we can see as individuals make great discoveries. Do you agree with that, or do you think it requires a university, or a big company?

I believe many different and extraordinarily useful things can be discovered for far less than a thousand dollars and can be performed at home, by hobby scientists. Here are some examples I've scribbled out...

Transferring a Lysergamide Producing Endophyte To Different Convolvulaceae

Effect of Tween 80 on grain colonization rate of different edible mushrooms.


I am working on a project, The Laboratory and I think once it becomes an "active and useful" forum, it will help people like us make discoveries, or at least apply what science already knows into new and useful things.

I'd like to have some "reality checks" sent my way though, do you think this is a good idea, or just lunacy? Do you think my Grant system is a good design, or should I try to implement something else?

This is the basic idea of how funding will be created: http://www.thelaboratory.org/talk/site-matters/need-graphic-design/?action=dlattach;attach=1271;image


I'm asking because I've thought this was a brilliant idea -- but one year later, and it hasn't even become slightly what I thought it would become... so I must be doing something wrong, right?
Someone has got to see an issue with my project that I cannot?

... maybe I just need to wait? patience?

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: Burbles]
    #15040560 - 09/06/11 11:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Burbles said:
Why is it that everyone has the idea and opinion that discoveries now days cost tons of money to perform? I think that since the complexity of the world around us, we can see as individuals make great discoveries. Do you agree with that, or do you think it requires a university, or a big company?





I agree.  Often it seems like its people who are just making crap up to justify their view that their lives are controlled by some ominpotent external force such as "corporations", oil companies, pharmaceutical companies, et cet.  The only way this makes sense, obviously, is if they have some means of enacting that control, so these people just imagine that research takes a ton of money and you need grants from corporate or government sources which the "evil corporations" naturally control.

Its garbage.

Unfortunately most people don't know what science is and are unaware of how its conducted, so there's a lot of popular mythology surrounding it, but especially on the prevalent salaries of even middle to lower class people in the US, you could do all sorts of interesting science.  All sorts of things in astronomy have been discovered by amateurs who just like looking at the sky and searching for new things, especially those the fancy observatories don't spend time looking at.  Plenty of chemistry research doesn't take that much money except for the government bullshit that prevents amateurs from getting chemicals and increasing the prices of them.

It would be nice to see the public more involved, or at least an amateur group of scientists form and be active in various fields.  I imagine keeping government out of it will be amongst the harder requirements, they've effectively shut down much of amateur chemistry and made it difficult to aquire non over the counter chemicals even in other fields.

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OfflineBurblesV
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: johnm214]
    #15040674 - 09/07/11 12:04 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah - and we also need to remember that those oil corps and pharm companies started off in a basement or with a rigged up set of pipes, etc... (a lot of them, not all)


Anyways, did you look at my site?
Have any tips for suggestions on how I can give it a kickstart?

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InvisibleTherian
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: Burbles]
    #15040738 - 09/07/11 12:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

When you read the primary literature in the field of the natural sciences, esp. in journals such as food science, wildlife bio, plantae, etc. many are not much more involved than the hypothetical tween 80 paper you posted. I'm sure someone could run the experiment, put in mrad format and it would look identical to what is published.

Are you looking to have member being published or just sharing results of their home experiments? From whom do you expect to receive the grants? Shit, just read you were the ones giving out the grants. I suppose that with enough advertising on a popular website with lots of traffic you could make some money. As for being a legit non-profit you have to become registered to do so, if you want to be able to allow others to write off contributions to your project on their taxes then the laws for your non profit are even more stringent.

I'm sure that if you had a few of your grantees have their results published due to your financial contributions you would have tons of sponsors. Sounds like a great idea to me.

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OfflineBurblesV
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: Therian]
    #15040776 - 09/07/11 12:40 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks. Yeah money would come from:
1. Direct Member to member donations
2. Member to site donations
3. Sponsor to site donations.

I figure 30 sponsors (about what shroomery has) at $10 bucks a month and a few supporter accounts = 3 x 100 dollar grants + extra for site, other grants, fees, etc

Could get some very good and super useful content. Especially that endophyte morning glory thing - about making other related plants produce LSA....


I will eventually try to get it non-profit, but I don't want to go through all of that paper work and legal issues until I know it will be a success.

Once it starts to take off I will probably also get some indian programmer to make it more like kickstarter, or indieGoGo but that is very costly... so in time...


It just seems like having open "info" amateur crown funded science research is a good idea.. but my god it is hard to get started! like if I could have 15 active members, who posted daily I think the rest of it, in addition to getting sponsors, continued growth and development would be a synch.

I've posted about 1000 of the 2900-ish posts.. :/ tons of work, kind of disappointing to not see it start to succeed.

I really fear maybe I am not sending the fully message properly to people who view the site?
Any part of my idea confusing to anyone? I'd like to try to make things clear as possible.

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: Burbles]
    #15040872 - 09/07/11 01:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

1. What gap are you actually trying to fill? It is very conceivable that the reason why amateur science has declined in popularity is because the educational system in Western countries is highly effective in channeling anyone with brains and an interest in science into the regular scientific system (i.e. universities, research institutes and corporate research environments).

2. Secondly, you mention in your opening post the 'complexity of the world around us'. This complexity includes that in most (all?) relevant fields of science, a very broad and thorough basis of knowledge is required to make a useful contribution. This knowledge base is often not feasible to acquire by one single person, and hence, the individual 'inventor' will need to rely on the knowledge of others - either through direct contact, or through literature study. What does your site/concept intend to do in terms of providing a knowledge infrastructure to amateur scientists (i.e. access to relevant journals etc.)?

3. In relation to (2), scientific progress occurs in extremely specific niches. The concept of a 'homo universalis' making relevant discoveries based on generic knowledge residing in just his brain has been obsolete for about 200 years now. This means that researchers/scientists/inventors need to focus on a narrow niche. This also means that not many people are active within each particular niche. Consequently, as a scientist, you want to have interactions with people who are active in those select niches that are relevant to yourself. What are the odds of getting a fruitful combination of niches/interests in your user base? And how are you going to ensure that the interactions on your website are going to be useful for the individual projects that are occurring?

4. What exactly is an 'invention'? It seems to me that this can either be in the (fundamental) research domain, e.g. the discovery of 'laws of nature' in specific fields of (natural) science, or in the development/application domain, where an invention results in a usable product (e.g. the light bulb). What type of invention are you aiming at? And how comparable will these two domains (which also have a considerable grey area between them) be in terms of funding, cost profiles, attractiveness for sponsors, etc.?

These are just a few very basic, fundamental issues that come to mind thinking about the concept you propose here. Lots of additional, more specific ones can be imagined too (e.g. how useful exactly is a $100 grant - what am I going to buy for that? How are you going to decide on which projects to fund? how are you going to deal with projects that don't deliver within the initially determined financial/temporal scope? who is going to own the products of these concepts? (how) are you going to facilitate the process of publishing results? how are you going to make sure you're a credible partner for amateur researchers, sponsors and the professional scientific community?). I think that what you're in the process of discovering, is that a modern research infrastructure includes many, many items that you couldn't have imagined to be important before you started. That's perfectly alright, and there's two things you can do with that: learn from it and pocket the useful experience, and/or actually attempt to fill in the gaps in your concept, e.g. by making the necessary interfaces with external partners/stakeholders to provide those pieces of the puzzle that you cannot constitute yourself.

All considered, I wish you the best of luck, and I hope your efforts will be fruitful.

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OfflineBurblesV
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: koraks]
    #15040959 - 09/07/11 02:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


1. What gap are you actually trying to fill? It is very conceivable that the reason why amateur science has declined in popularity is because the educational system in Western countries is highly effective in channeling anyone with brains and an interest in science into the regular scientific system (i.e. universities, research institutes and corporate research environments).





I disagree with this to some extent, but good point. I feel it has a lot more to do with the draconian laws... http://memepunks.blogspot.com/2006/06/americas-war-on-science.html

Plus the research incentives at "The Laboratory" might be more niche' to a particular feild of research that university may not find totally pleasing to do  -- such as try to make psychoactive tomatoes, or at least more psychoactive plants in the Convolvulacaea family... :laugh:

Or infect Salvia Divinorum with the mycoplasm in Poinsettias, which lead to increased branching and shorter plants - this is however something a lot of us would like to see done, as well as many of the ethnobotanical suppliers.

Quote:


2. Secondly, you mention in your opening post the 'complexity of the world around us'. This complexity includes that in most (all?) relevant fields of science, a very broad and thorough basis of knowledge is required to make a useful contribution. This knowledge base is often not feasible to acquire by one single person, and hence, the individual 'inventor' will need to rely on the knowledge of others - either through direct contact, or through literature study. What does your site/concept intend to do in terms of providing a knowledge infrastructure to amateur scientists (i.e. access to relevant journals etc.)?





1. Many people will go to university and can help provide journals -as they do in many other places
2. Its a community... obviously they will rely and use knowledge from others via direct contact, literature, etc
3. The Tween 80 and Dodder/LSA infection are good examples of uncharted territories that could be done on a budget.



Quote:


3. In relation to (2), scientific progress occurs in extremely specific niches. The concept of a 'homo universalis' making relevant discoveries based on generic knowledge residing in just his brain has been obsolete for about 200 years now.




I never made a claim an individual would do everything; again it is a forum - a community - hopefully full of people all over the world, with access to all different things from seeds otherwise not easily obtainable, journal access as many would be college students, and the rest are happy to pirate material - who isn't these days? Information, coordination, and communication are very accessible.

Quote:


This means that researchers/scientists/inventors need to focus on a narrow niche. This also means that not many people are active within each particular niche. Consequently, as a scientist, you want to have interactions with people who are active in those select niches that are relevant to yourself. What are the odds of getting a fruitful combination of niches/interests in your user base? And how are you going to ensure that the interactions on your website are going to be useful for the individual projects that are occurring?




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OfflineBurblesV
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: Burbles]
    #15040963 - 09/07/11 02:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


4. What exactly is an 'invention'? It seems to me that this can either be in the (fundamental) research domain, e.g. the discovery of 'laws of nature' in specific fields of (natural) science, or in the development/application domain, where an invention results in a usable product (e.g. the light bulb). What type of invention are you aiming at? And how comparable will these two domains (which also have a considerable grey area between them) be in terms of funding, cost profiles, attractiveness for sponsors, etc.?




1. I guess we would be applying knowledge that hasn't been applied yet, which is confirming an idea, discovery (again, transferring endophyte to different plants to produce LSA is a great example; not really inventing a new method, or discovering a new organism - but you are applying what is already known to produce something completely novel and undocumented - such as a bindweed containing an LSA producing endophyte. This is in my book a discovery about it being possible, and really is "inventing" something.


Quote:


These are just a few very basic, fundamental issues that come to mind thinking about the concept you propose here. Lots of additional, more specific ones can be imagined too





(e.g. how useful exactly is a $100 grant - what am I going to buy for that?




Most people have a lot of material already (how much mycology stuff do you have from over the years?) and it is suggested they try to match their grant with their own money. I feel in that perspective tons of progress can be made; did you not see my ideas on Tween 80 and infecting other "morning glory" related plants with the LSA fungi via transfer using dodder? That is something that can easily be tested, and would be highly relevant to a lot of peoples interests.

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OfflineBurblesV
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: Burbles]
    #15040965 - 09/07/11 02:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


How are you going to decide on which projects to fund?





Quote:


how are you going to deal with projects that don't deliver within the initially determined financial/temporal scope?




Not sure, probably a voting/semi-republic system if they get more money or not, and reviewing the general  and overall interest in the subject matter. Same way everyone else does it?


Quote:


who is going to own the products of these concepts?




Public Domain

Quote:


(how) are you going to facilitate the process of publishing results? how are you going to make sure you're a credible partner for amateur researchers, sponsors and the professional scientific community?).





The same way everyone does it; build trust, be reliable, review, bring up any false data that got past our peer review,  etc...

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OfflineBurblesV
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: Burbles]
    #15040966 - 09/07/11 02:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


I think that what you're in the process of discovering, is that a modern research infrastructure includes many, many items that you couldn't have imagined to be important before you started.




Not true, I still think certain projects and research, experimentation, etc is completely within reach. I am not claiming to go to the moon with this, or cure cancer - instead improve on known methods of certain things (again, Tween 80) and modify things we know should be able to happen, but have yet to be created (Endophyte, LSA, dodder infection)both of which are useful and would produce unique inventions/discoveries.


Quote:


That's perfectly alright, and there's two things you can do with that: learn from it and pocket the useful experience, and/or actually attempt to fill in the gaps in your concept, e.g. by making the necessary interfaces with external partners/stakeholders to provide those pieces of the puzzle that you cannot constitute yourself.





I think once the forum takes off, a lot of the issues will dissolve, as we get sponsors, and well read people interested in the niche' research areas we are targeting; we are not looking into physics, explosives, etc but instead certain areas of biology and chemistry that has experiments/projects within reach.

Quote:



All considered, I wish you the best of luck, and I hope your efforts will be fruitful.




Thank you, I really appreciate the thoughtful and I bet time consuming reply you put forward. Greatly appreciated, and I will continue to consider all of your points, especially as the project progresses.

Also sorry about the multiple posts - it didnt' allow me to do it all in one due to too many quotes and "HTML" which wasn't present AFAIK

Edited by Burbles (09/07/11 02:21 AM)

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: Burbles]
    #15040984 - 09/07/11 02:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Based on your answers, I come to wonder what the added value of your website actually is? I mean, you indicate that people will rely on peer-to-peer communication (for which the infrastructure is already present in the form of a plethora of message boards etc.), they will secure access to relevant literature through (pre-existing) associations with institutes, and the funding you mean to provide is only a small augmentation of the resources that people already possess themselves. How are you adding value in this system? Because it seems to me that in the current setup, you're not really adding much on top of existing amateur projects such as the ones that have resulted in easy-to-use TEKs for growing mushrooms, or high-yielding strains of cannabis.

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OfflineBurblesV
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: koraks]
    #15040996 - 09/07/11 02:40 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Now that is a good point, but I think having a site that has the main goal be to produce, as you call them "easy-to-use" teks (though, it would be more advanced, provide references, and not be to educate or get newbies started) research papers, in addition to crowd funding, and social pressure to post good work, as well as a few other things will give it a nudge in the right direction and should lead or result in some very useful new creations, discoveries, and inventions.

I certainly don't intend for this to become like a university, but hopefully just a small(ish) website with dedicated members that push towards producing interesting and useful content that is useful to business, such as the tween 80 example; could lead to improved yield, faster colonization periods, and other things that would be significantly useful to industrially producing edible mushrooms for distribution.


Did you review the Tween 80 and other Proposed Experiment? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts, also I feel it would help you understand more along the lines what I have in mind, if you have not already read them.

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: Burbles]
    #15041017 - 09/07/11 02:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I haven't read it yet, but I might do so later today :thumbup:

I think by choosing the 'tek' path (yeah, I know, it'll be a bit more advanced; just for lack of a better word and whatnot) you're on the way of carving out a niche that seems viable to me. What I like in particular about it is that it involves disseminating science that is hard to access/use by the general public among a broader community. In other words: you'll help bringing science to the masses. That's something that universities in particular are doing a very poor job at, at the moment, so I feel it certainly has added value if you succeed where the powers that be are failing quite hard.

The second thing that may be useful to do is think about the scope of the content you want to deal with. You seem currently focused on stuff in the biotechnology sector, but I suspect that you'll respond to this by saying 'no, anything goes'. While there is certainly an appeal in doing the scientific equivalent of a carpet bombing campaign, the lack of focus can result in problems with the positioning of your concept and a lack of recognition with relevant stakeholders.

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OfflineBurblesV
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: koraks]
    #15041028 - 09/07/11 03:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The second thing that may be useful to do is think about the scope of the content you want to deal with. You seem currently focused on stuff in the biotechnology sector, but I suspect that you'll respond to this by saying 'no, anything goes'. While there is certainly an appeal in doing the scientific equivalent of a carpet bombing campaign, the lack of focus can result in problems with the positioning of your concept and a lack of recognition with relevant stakeholders.




That is undoubtedly excellent advice - Do you run a forum? I keep the focus on chemistry,biology, and specifically botany/mycology.
All 3 share a common "amateur scientist" backbone.. and I think you'd get it if you saw all of the topics.. such as interests in trying to improve alkaloid content of certain cacti, fungi or grasses, make alginate, LSA producing organisms,and certain types of chemistry (manganese persulfate, etc)... :wink:


Like I said earlier, no physics is intended on this site, but is focusing only on bio/chem stuff..

I honestly feel the forum isn't currently focused enough, but I am not sure how to properly combine biology and chemistry in the ratio I'd like to... it is tricky stuff to design the categories of a forum. IMO



Quote:

I think by choosing the 'tek' path (yeah, I know, it'll be a bit more advanced; just for lack of a better word and whatnot) you're on the way of carving out a niche that seems viable to me. What I like in particular about it is that it involves disseminating science that is hard to access/use by the general public among a broader community. In other words: you'll help bringing science to the masses. That's something that universities in particular are doing a very poor job at, at the moment, so I feel it certainly has added value if you succeed where the powers that be are failing quite hard.




I like the way that is put. That really is the idea behind it, put more eloquently than I've been able to display it.


Quote:

I haven't read it yet, but I might do so later today



Do it - I think we're all on the same page, but perhaps small misunderstanding about the "prestigiousness" of the site.

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OfflineBurblesV
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: Burbles]
    #15044357 - 09/07/11 06:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

@koraks --- If you were in charge of this project, what sort of categories would you set up?

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: Burbles]
    #15046086 - 09/08/11 01:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I read the experiments/proposals you linked to in the opening post. They support the notion that your website/community is focused on pragmatic developments that are not so much designed to generate academic knowledge, but that use semi-informed hypotheses to create new applications. While a little far-fetched (the actual mechanisms involved are not explored in detail), the experiments are designed in such a way that they can be performed at a low cost, and hey, who knows, perhaps something useful happens if you set up enough of those experiments.

Quote:

Burbles said:
@koraks --- If you were in charge of this project, what sort of categories would you set up?



Well, it's a bit of an easy answer, but I'd let it depend on the community of users I think I can lure into the community. Depending on the variety of interests they have, I'd devise a segmentation of subject matter. Also, I would periodically revise this segmentation so it can be adjusted to suit changes in the community. On a more detailed level, you could consider segmenting along several criteria. You could create groups depending on application (e.g. making new psychoactive organisms, improvements to the growth process of plants and fungi, extraction processes for compounds from organisms, etc.), species (plants, fungi, algae) or techniques (chemical separation, sub-cell techniques, plant breeding, etc.)

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OfflineBurblesV
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Re: I believe discoveries can be made on a budget. Do you agree? [Re: koraks]
    #15063928 - 09/11/11 05:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks a lot for all the input. Greatly appreciated. :smile:


Also... bump for other ideas/opinions. It is really helpful and I appreciate it.

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