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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504509 - 04/29/03 03:05 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Type in "Friendly Fire" into any search engine...my guess is that you'll see the vast majority if not all of them are U.S. related.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504516 - 04/29/03 03:07 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

So the Bill Gates analogy doesn't fit. You didn't call hiim incompetent, but you are comparing apples and oranges.


I am debating with two people...that analogy was not for the soldiers but as to why the U.S. is the lone super power...that's why I made the Quote above it.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Rono]
    #1504526 - 04/29/03 03:10 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

OK, but my 'superpower' comment was addressing "the us is neither perfect nor competent". Motive is entirely seperate.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504533 - 04/29/03 03:12 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

You were basically asking why the U.S. was the lone super power...correct? I simply stated my opinion as to why it is.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Rono]
    #1504547 - 04/29/03 03:16 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

No, I was stating that we couldn't have become a superpower if we were incompetent. It was sarcasm directed at Azmodeus.

Sorry about the peanut gallery bit.


Edited by wingnutx (04/29/03 03:20 PM)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504560 - 04/29/03 03:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I would say that the U.S. government is far from incompetent...it is very calculating. But that does not mean that it's soldiers are.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Rono]
    #1504563 - 04/29/03 03:22 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Compare friendly fire stats from WWII on up. They are amazingly low now. I wish they were zero, but Murphy's Law will always get you in the end, in any profession. Humans are imperfect.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504568 - 04/29/03 03:23 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry about the peanut gallery bit. 




Unacceptable! I am deeply upset and hurt by such a negative comment.... :frown:

I'll be in the support forum for a bit... :crazy:


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1504936 - 04/29/03 05:18 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

So, if we're going to go to war, the killing of ANY civilians is unnacceptable?

Thats the silliest thing I've heard.

By that logic, we should NEVER have fought in a war.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1504943 - 04/29/03 05:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Basically that means "Don't do anything unless you can do it absolutely perfectly".

By that logic no dentist could fill a cavity, because a small amount of patients die each year during that procedure.

We'd have never chased the Nazis out of France, either. We killed tons of civilians and friendly troops during the invasion. It was worth it.


Edited by wingnutx (04/29/03 05:21 PM)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1504945 - 04/29/03 05:21 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

It's only relatively "recently" in history that it has become "acceptable" to kill civilians...


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1504948 - 04/29/03 05:21 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

So, if we're going to go to war, the killing of ANY civilians is unnacceptable? 




Yes.  That doesn't mean they won't occur, but to claim them an acceptable "cost of war" is unacceptable!

Quote:

By that logic, we should NEVER have fought in a war.   




Now your getting it! :smile: The US should NOT have fought in this war and many others.  "Going" to war is bullshit, defending from an invasion is nescessary.


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Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Rono]
    #1504959 - 04/29/03 05:25 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

that's because swords don't have a blast radius.

Come to think of it, 2000 year old seige weapons caused a lot of collateral damage. "Greek Fire", catapults, etc...

Meticulous efforts to spare civilians are actually pretty new. Pre-arrainged battlefields are gone, but those were not consistently used anyway.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1504965 - 04/29/03 05:26 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"Now your getting it! The US should NOT have fought in this war and many others. "Going" to war is bullshit, defending from an invasion is nescessary. "

Incredible. Tell me you dont actually believe this. Sure, some wars have been completely silly and pointless (Spanish-American). But can you honestly say that we shouldnt have gotten involved in Korea? WW2? The United States itself hasnt been invaded in nearly 200 years...Unless you count Pearl Harbor...Does that mean we should not use our military in defense of others?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504971 - 04/29/03 05:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

But by the time an army reached the city you were either victorious or defeated...the fighting was done, all you had to do is surrender or celebrate! But the occasional seige would have been brutal on the civilian populace! But back then i dont think they had "civilians"...if you were in an enemy city you were the enemy.


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1504983 - 04/29/03 05:31 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"But by the time an army reached the city you were either victorious or defeated"

What about the thousands of peasant farms ransacked to provide forage for these armies? Or the indiscriminate looting of both friends AND foes that was often guaranteed to troops as part of their pay?

Sure, war is never nice and cozy, but the war's that the United States wages today are the cleanest and most concerned about casualties EVER. Trust me. The Nazi's didnt care, the Commies sure as hell didnt care...Its an American concept...


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1505000 - 04/29/03 05:36 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Incredible. Tell me you dont actually believe this. Sure, some wars have been completely silly and pointless (Spanish-American). But can you honestly say that we shouldnt have gotten involved in Korea? WW2? The United States itself hasnt been invaded in nearly 200 years...Unless you count Pearl Harbor...Does that mean we should not use our military in defense of others?




Its hard for me to comment on ww2, and korea as im quite young and am relatively ignorant on the topics.
"The United States itself hasnt been invaded in nearly 200 years...Unless you count Pearl Harbor...Does that mean we should not use our military in defense of others? "
Im not sure what you mean here, but very rarely...if EVER...should your military intervein in conflicts not directly involving them! I know im canadian, but wasn't pearl harbour part of america? defending it is defending yourself not others...


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1505003 - 04/29/03 05:37 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

BS.

Persians would leave pyramids of human skulls outside the gates of a conquered city.

The Romans coined the term 'decimate' when they killed every tenth person in a city to set an example.

Muslim and Christian armies laid waste to each other's populace during the crusades.

Japan used anthrax, botulin, and plague bombs on the Chinese in WWII, and slaughtered civilians wholesale in major cities. (when I visited New Guinea the locals kept buying me beers to thank me for saving them from the Japanese in the 40s. This was in 89, and the memory is still fresh for them)

The list goes on and on. We are now going way out of our way to avoid civilian casualties, even though it makes it more dangerous to our soldiers.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1505023 - 04/29/03 05:43 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Vietnam had no personal stake in stopping the Kmher Rhouge(sp?) from butchering their own people. They were still doing the right thing. There were innocents killed in the invasion, but less than if Pol Pot had been able to continue.



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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1505027 - 04/29/03 05:45 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

"Its hard for me to comment on ww2, and korea as im quite young and am relatively ignorant on the topics. "

Well, then. Let me enlighten you. Pearl Harbor was not an invasion, it was a raid. Japan DID conquer 2 (two) rocky islands near Alaska. Now, the day after Pearl Harbor, we declared war on Germany, who had most certainly NOT invaded us.

That was wrong, right?

In Korea, the Communist north invaded the Capitalist south, with the aid of China. We kicked their ass, and then China kicked our ass...It was a draw, but it taught China not to meddle with us. Even Vietnam, when they had their war, got more support from Russia and Cuba than it did from China.

Sometimes, War is necessary, whether your invaded or not. Unless, your a pacifist, in which case, my arguments arent directed at you.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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