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OfflineMadtowntripper
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U.S. Soldiers Kill 13?
    #1503723 - 04/29/03 10:44 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Pains me to say, being one of the rare pro-war folks around these parts, but it seems U.S. Soldiers have gunned down 14 Iraqi's in the city of Falluja, near Baghdad. They say they we're only returning fire, but somehow, I dont think thats gonna go over well in the rest of the world. Its a long article, but I'll put it here. Feel free to move it mods, should you want too....

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. troops shot dead at least 13 Iraqis during an anti-American protest in the town of Falluja overnight, witnesses said on Tuesday, in bloodshed sure to inflame anger at the U.S. presence in Iraq (news - web sites).

Witnesses in the town 30 miles west of Baghdad told Reuters the troops opened fire on unarmed demonstrators, but U.S. officers said their men returned fire after being shot at first.


Falluja hospital director Ahmed Ghanim al-Ali said 13 people had been killed and at least 75 wounded. Some local people gave higher estimates, saying the protesters had been demanding that troops vacate a school in the town.


But U.S. Lt. Christopher Hart said a crowd of 100 to 200 chanting people approached his men, who opened fire after two gunmen with combat rifles appeared from behind the crowd on a motorcycle and started shooting.


Some people in the crowd then also fired at the troops, he said. He put the death toll at between seven and 10.


U.S. officers seeking to restore order in the volatile aftermath of Saddam's fall said 3,000 to 4,000 extra troops and military police would pour into Baghdad within the next 10 days to boost security in the capital.


Maj. Gen. Glenn Webster, deputy commander of U.S. land forces in Iraq, said the decision to bring in reinforcements was not related to any specific incident but the announcement followed a series of setbacks to U.S. efforts to win popular Iraqi support.


With Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) removed from power, the United States said it was pulling nearly all of its military forces out of neighboring Saudi Arabia in a major realignment of its presence in the Gulf.


The shooting in Falluja, and a clash between U.S. forces and Iraqi fighters in the northern city of Mosul on Monday in which six Iraqis were killed, punctured some of the optimism generated by a mass meeting convened by the United States in Baghdad to kickstart the transition to democracy.


FALLUJA BURIES ITS DEAD


"Our soul and our blood we will sacrifice to you martyrs," mourners in Falluja chanted as they buried some of the dead at a cemetery while U.S. helicopters flew overhead.


"It was a peaceful demonstration. They did not have any weapons," said local Sunni Muslim cleric, Kamal Shaker Mahmoud. "They were asking the Americans to leave the school so they could use it."











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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1503742 - 04/29/03 10:53 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

This is not gonna be good for our image, and in world politics, image is everything.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1504197 - 04/29/03 01:49 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

One thing this war has done is show the incompetence of the average US soldier.


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Revelation]
    #1504204 - 04/29/03 01:50 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Please elaborate on that. I think you are completely ignorant on the subject.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504212 - 04/29/03 01:54 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

a) Killing civilians
b) Killing UK troops
c) Killing reporters


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Revelation]
    #1504227 - 04/29/03 01:58 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I see that I was right. Please read some military history, then something about the training and educational levels of various nation's militaries, then revisit your statement.

The US and Britain are fielding the best trained & most competent soldiers in history.

To get this thread back on track, all I can say is that I am waiting for the facts. Hopefully they will all come out eventually. I'm not going to judge either way based on the skimpy reports now available.


Edited by wingnutx (04/29/03 01:59 PM)


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504244 - 04/29/03 02:02 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Okay, by "incompetent" I meant consistently opening fire on the wrong people. Sorry for any confusion.


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Revelation]
    #1504264 - 04/29/03 02:05 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

consistently




Bullshit. Cite specific examples. Remember, words mean things.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504274 - 04/29/03 02:06 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Eh what? I didnt know the US image could get more tarnished. Killing civilians is standard process now.


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man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Revelation]
    #1504289 - 04/29/03 02:09 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

no, nO, NO!! The american soldier is like an angel from god! Righteouss and good. The evil irai dissidents opened fire, and america had to protect the protestors. It was for the greater good!...someone needs to do the dirty work.....there are always civilian casualties in war...{insert BS reason here}....etc....


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504296 - 04/29/03 02:10 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bullshit. Cite specific examples.




Afghanistan, and the bombing of candian snipers...

The numerous incident in the iraq war...(sorry you'll need to find your own sources)


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504301 - 04/29/03 02:11 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bullshit. Cite specific examples. Remember, words mean things.


How soon they forget...what about the Canadians that were bombed in Afghanistan? The Brits that were shot up in Iraq?...or don't you get that news?


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (04/29/03 02:12 PM)


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Offlinepattern
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1504307 - 04/29/03 02:12 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Repeat 1000 times: "Colateral damage is not only ok, its for the good of all."



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man = monkey + mushroom


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1504314 - 04/29/03 02:12 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Can you cut out the hyperbole? Nobody is claiming perfection, because it doesn't exist. Realistically, though, we field the best trained army in history. It's a luxury that successful democracies have.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504323 - 04/29/03 02:14 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The army is great, but some the orders they are given are shitty.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504327 - 04/29/03 02:15 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Can you cut out the hyperbole? Nobody is claiming perfection, because it doesn't exist. Realistically, though, we field the best trained army in history. It's a luxury that successful democracies have. 




hyperbole?!...that was a quote from bush! :grin:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504337 - 04/29/03 02:18 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bullshit. Cite specific examples. Remember, words mean things.


How soon they forget...what about the Canadians that were bombed in Afghanistan?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Rono]
    #1504338 - 04/29/03 02:18 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Those pilots fucked up. That does not make the average soldier incompetent. Narrow brush versus broad brush. If one of those pilots is black, does that mean that all blacks are incompetent? Of course not. Individuals should of course be held accountable.

You people are deliberately demanding unrealistic levels of performance in the midst of chaos in order to bolster your position. Perfection does not exist, but we are far closer than we've ever been. I refuse to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.


Edited by wingnutx (04/29/03 02:22 PM)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1504387 - 04/29/03 02:27 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You people are deliberately demanding unrealistic levels of performance


Me must have different levels of realistic levels then...I was always under the assumption that bombing allies was unacceptable. If the U.S. troops are so well trained why do they have more friendly fire incidents than ANY other country?...by far.

Is it poor judgement in the command structure?...is it trigger happy soldiers?..To be honest, I don't know but it is an issue that needs to be addressed.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (04/29/03 02:29 PM)


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: U.S. Soldiers Kill 13? [Re: Rono]
    #1504397 - 04/29/03 02:28 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Most likely because we are involved in more military actions than pretty much any other country.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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