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OfflineViBrAnT
WaRpInG &sPiRaLiNg
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 286
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1503146 - 04/29/03 03:36 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

yet who would give the plants consciousness? certainly not you. of course a plant doesnt think, the thinker observes the plant. were the thinker to more deeply observe the plant, he would in a scense become part of the plant as he is blending with his surroundings, he might be able to sense what the plant is "feeling" in this manner.


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" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




Edited by ViBrAnT (04/29/03 03:37 AM)


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #1503168 - 04/29/03 03:44 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting theory, but I don't buy it. You're just spouting rehearsed hippie jumbo with no facts or logic tied to it. I didn't claim to give plants conciousness. You said it yourself 'plants don't think'. Please try again with a semblance of an argument.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1503170 - 04/29/03 03:44 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Life is like a box of chocolates.......... :crazy:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 521
Loc: on my way to another plac...
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Define Life [Re: Murex]
    #1503192 - 04/29/03 03:53 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

rehersed hippie jumbo, clever. dumbass.

can you prove with facts or logic that plants DONT have consciousness?
No, so until you can, i say they do.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503205 - 04/29/03 03:59 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Just because you say they have conciousness doesn't make it so. You are under the assumption that conciousness can exist outside of a brain. Fine, but then your definition of conciousness is so broad so as to apply to every single sub-atomic particle in the universe. A dildo has conciousness? I think you are confusing 'life' with 'conciousness', they are two very different things. Give me your definition of conciousness and we'll start from there.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 521
Loc: on my way to another plac...
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1503234 - 04/29/03 04:16 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

every single subatomic particle does have consciousness. the dildo itself? no, but the particles that make up said dildo? certainley. Concsiousness can exist without a brain. Jellyfish have no brain, yet they obviousley have consciousness.

I already gave my definiton-The Awareness of Being

So like i said before, prove plants, or sub-atomic particles for that matter, DONT have concsiousness. You cant do it. Ultimatley there is no right or wrong, only what we choose to belive, i chose to belive they do.

I use this quote way too often, but mabey sooner or later people will catch on.

"It isn't necessarily so, what you belive. You must see that whatever you belive in is'nt necessarily the truth, because the fact that it could be right or wrong is also infinite, that's the whole point of it. The whole being fluid and changing all the time and evolving." -Sir Paul McCartney

Learn from him, he knew.



--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503249 - 04/29/03 04:27 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Somehow I doubt jellyfish are aware of their own being. But since noone can speak jellyfishese, that will remain an unsolved mystery for now. If consciousness exists within every particle in the universe, then at least we can come to an agreement that it only manifests itself within higher order life forms as opposed to pet rocks and dildos.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 521
Loc: on my way to another plac...
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1503261 - 04/29/03 04:32 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

i can talk to jellyfish, you cant?

But i will agree with the last part of what you said.

I think what we disagree upon is what the higher order life form is, i say jellyfish and plants quallify, and as I see it, you dont.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


Edited by thestringphish (04/29/03 04:35 AM)


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503266 - 04/29/03 04:34 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I make it a rule to never talk to something that I eat raw.  :smirk:


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1503268 - 04/29/03 04:35 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

you dont talk to pussy? you should, its fun, and you will soon learn they have a mind of their own.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 521
Loc: on my way to another plac...
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Define Life [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1503271 - 04/29/03 04:37 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If I were a canibal i would still talk to my dinner.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
Male

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503385 - 04/29/03 05:44 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

string phish nice name by the way love both the bands anyways you used that quote did you ever think that maybe you should take it to heart and that maybe you're wrong? to quote swami i think it was you cant argue something on the point that it cant be proven to be wrong. you said PROVE that plants dont have a consiousness well thats impossible if it is not there to begin with. im not saying that its not but its not a viable argument. its like saying prove there arent lepercauns, well i wouldnt find one if i looked but you could still say PROVE they that they dont exist or just cause you didnt see one doesn't mean they dont exist. this argument has been used again and again. it they never did exist i would find nothing to prove my point and you would say well they still COULD have. now im NOT a skeptic in genreal but i still dont like to see this argument its pointless and endless. i dont know if plants have consiousness but i dont think that do i think they are alive and reproduce and live in predetermined cycles. they live just so they can reproduce they dont think about it they just grow and live. how can an atom of anything have a consiousness? i really dont understand this one. does the atom "know" what its doing when it reacts to another atom and forms a bond? not likely. heres websters defination

1 a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact c : AWARENESS; especially : concern for some social or political cause
2 : the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : MIND
3 : the totality of conscious states of an individual
4 : the normal state of conscious life <regained consciousness>
5 : the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes

i see one thing that might be on your side number 4 says that its the NORMAL state of conscious life. maybe there are different degrees of conscious life. maybe we are at a "higher" consciouness than plants and therefore they(if they could speak/think) would define it different maybe its only the will to live. i think plants have this they struggle to survive in harsh climates. so now that im done writing this i think that i really dont know wheather or not they have it. but i still dont think that atoms do. we'll probly never know but its something to think about. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Define Life [Re: blaze2]
    #1503407 - 04/29/03 06:03 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

There are four levels of consciousness; mineral, plant, animal, human.. well actually there are seven but for the purpose of this presentation I will only use four. I will attempt to explain as I know how.

Mineral has physical body alone, it has existance, but is not aware of it. Consider this 1st dimensional.

Plant has physical body and etheric body, it has existance and awareness as biological matter, but does not posses self-awareness, it does not associate with what we know as the "I" presence. Or sense of ego.
2nd dimension

Animal has physical body, etheric body, and astral body, it has existance and is aware of it, and has seperate identity and survival instincts, yet no sense of ego.
Human has physical body, etheric body, astral body, and mental body.. we have existance, are fully aware of it, and associate with the ego, or individual consciousness, and the subsequent illusion of seperation.
3rd dimension.

Anyone who has communicated with trees, is sure of the consciousness of plants.


--------------------


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Offlinegedezia
backlash
Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 60
Loc: heaven
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503453 - 04/29/03 06:31 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

thestringphish is right bert, youre wrong. just accept it and spare yourself further embarrassment.


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Offlineentiformatie
EvolutionaryMovements
Male
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 1,043
Loc: miami, florida
Last seen: 13 years, 27 days
Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1503459 - 04/29/03 06:40 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

a plant grows towards sunlight for a damn good reason, the same way we have an urge to have sex. just because we want to have sex, we arent concious? just because we have all this programming embedded in us to make our species survive and procreate, doesnt make us any more concious. Anything that can procreate HAS to be concious of the fact that there is something pushing it reproduce its species. Tables don't just makes little baby tables. Why? Because they aren't concious.

Quote:

Conciousness is the ability to make decisions. A plant doesn't 'decide' to grow in any particular direction. It grows toward sunlight. A lot of you would get a lot more out of this forum if you actually tried using logic in your arguments. A plant may be 'alive', but life does not equate conciousness. A table can be a rectangle, but that doesn't mean all rectangles are tables.




--------------------
/opinion
.sean


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1503462 - 04/29/03 06:45 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

A plant may be 'alive', but life does not equate conciousness.
A table can be a rectangle, but that doesn't mean all rectangles are tables.


Nor does a rectangle define all aspects of a table.



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Edited by Shroomism (04/29/03 06:49 AM)


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Offlinecleaner
Stranger

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 508
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503517 - 04/29/03 07:26 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ridiculous? how so? they are multicelled reproducing living organisms just like you and me, the have stiff cell walls so they stay in one place, we have flexible cell walls so we can move, thats the only diference. How could you say they don't? thats closed minded and unfounded, and rediculous. I suggest you open the ol' third eye in a forest or something and talk to some trees. I'm sure they'll set you straight.




Yes my friend. But at times like this you have to remember that some people a very stupid, part of that stupidiy is genetic , part - aquired. And no matter what you do to them they will never get it.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: entiformatie]
    #1504562 - 04/29/03 03:22 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Nope, try again. You are using some horrid reasoning here. We procreate because we 'decide' to procreate. A plant has zero say in whether it procreates or not. It is entirely out of its control. Just because something can procreate does not mean it has consciousness. You just made that up and it has no premise. Furthermore, you are continuing to use reverse reasoning. Try a little experiment. Take a male plant and a female plant of the same species during pollenation and place them together. They will invariably reproduce. Take a man and a woman and place them in the same room and no matter how long they sit there, if they don't 'want' to reproduce, they simply won't do it.
Also, we have already decided on the definition of consciousness for this thread. That being 'awareness of self'. You jumped right in and whimsically made up your own definition as 'ability to procreate'. What about a virus? Viruses can't survive without a host body to feed off of. They don't even have a nucleus, you want to suggest that maybe SARs is conscious of what it is doing? I recently read a very good book called 'Emergence' that you should check out. It is an interesting and fairly simple read that may explain to many of you why procreation does not equal consciousness.



--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1504589 - 04/29/03 03:31 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Shroomism, bring me a source where you got your '4 levels of Consciousness'.
It is not pushing the debate further at all because it is not grounded in anything.
The only thing that can stand up to scrutiny is experimentation. So maybe we should do an experiment. You say you can communicate with plants and many others can as well. You also claim telepathic skills. So why not incorporate plants into the telepathy challenge? We can do a double blind experiment and see if both you and another 'plant telepath' can ascertain the same knowledge from the same plant from a remote location.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


Edited by bert (04/29/03 03:42 PM)


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Offlineninjahedge
hedge made ofninjas

Registered: 04/14/03
Posts: 58
Loc: here nor there
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1504613 - 04/29/03 03:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

bert i am totally with you - plants don't have consciousness....and neither do subatomic particles. you people have some seriously whacked concepts of consciousness. give humans some credit...


--------------------
ow, i poked my brain,
now it's leaking all over...
i guess it's ok


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