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 Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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 Re: Death anxiety  [Re: matukuul]
#15040493 - 09/06/11 10:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
matukuul said:
Quote:
Cups said:
So the point is that such realities serve to remind man of his lack of status. We're not on a pedestal among the natural world...to quote Sheldon-
Are you implying that because this picture and such realities can and have happen to people, that some 'personal God' cannot exist because otherwise it wouldn't let such things happen?
Not at all. God can do what he wants obviously.
What I was trying to convey was the tendency of humans (due to death anxiety IMO) to make themselves separate from the natural world, essential creating a duality of US and them. Generally if given a choice between running over a person or swerving and hitting a mouse they will hit the mouse. But why?
It's not a bad idea really...history shows time and time again that those groups of people who are closest to nature tend to get run the fuck over by those who try to rise beyond it however futile the effort may be.
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What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Death anxiety [Re: Cups]
#15041251 - 09/07/11 05:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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What's nature ever done for us anyway? Death disease and lots of fungal infections.
No wonder we wanted to put it all behind us and keep a few National parks to play nice nice in.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Quote:
Icelander said:
What's nature ever done for us anyway? Death disease and lots of fungal infections.
No wonder we wanted to put it all behind us and keep a few National parks to play nice nice in.
It's very interesting because IMO both the "one with nature" and "overlord of nature" approaches are expressions of death anxiety...what I find interesting is that from a pure survival standpoint one is clearly superior to the other by a wide margin.
Of course it's all natural in the end...but one "natural" approach seems markedly superior. Darwin anyone?
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What's up everybody?!
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Cups
technically "here"
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Posts: 1,925
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Re: Death anxiety [Re: NetDiver]
#15045582 - 09/07/11 10:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey Samurai,
Just deleted a response to you I had worked on for far too long...never finished it really.
I tried, I really did...but thinking about your post and coming up with my responses took me into deeper pools than I care to swim in right now. You were right about needing a decent definition of what life is, what death is etc. Problem is I don't have any. 
IMO Becker wrote the book with the common man in mind. Certain that he "exists and that he "knows" what life and death are...not that he could ever explain it to you of course. It is apparently not so simple for people who give serious effort to their mental masturbation.
Perhaps that's why it rubs you so raw. I don't know. What I can tell you plainly is that IME when I cut through all the layers of BS the remainder is terror. Interestingly this is what solidified my acceptance of the theory...when one by one I lost my beliefs about the "big" questions and in the end felt nothing but unfiltered fear.
It's an age old tale...which I think is Becker's point.
Anyway, sorry for tapping out.
Cups
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What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Death anxiety [Re: Cups]
#15046850 - 09/08/11 08:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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sissy
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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 xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
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Last seen: 16 hours, 19 minutes
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"in the end felt nothing but unfiltered fear."
Fear is a result of knowledge/trauma. You weren't done enough.
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Icelander
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Re: Death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#15047323 - 09/08/11 10:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think Frock/trauma is my biggest fear. Death is nothing compared to that.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
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Re: Death anxiety [Re: Cups]
#15047712 - 09/08/11 12:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
IMO Becker wrote the book with the common man in mind. Certain that he "exists and that he "knows" what life and death are...not that he could ever explain it to you of course. It is apparently not so simple for people who give serious effort to their mental masturbation.
If my ontological theories are mental masturbation, couldn't you say that the Death Anxiety theory is as well? Couldn't you say that all discussion of anything is "mental masturbation?"
Quote:
Perhaps that's why it rubs you so raw. I don't know. What I can tell you plainly is that IME when I cut through all the layers of BS the remainder is terror. Interestingly this is what solidified my acceptance of the theory...when one by one I lost my beliefs about the "big" questions and in the end felt nothing but unfiltered fear.
If you feel anything at all (even fear), I would say you have not lost all of your beliefs about the big questions. Your beliefs have only turned pessimistic, which is the opposite end of the spectrum of belief. True objectivity is dead neutral.
There's a common tendency among people who consider themselves intelligent to assume that all optimism is wishful thinking all the time; that to be intellectually strong one must acknowledge the worst as the truth and face up to it. But this is no more justified than hoping for the best to be true. What is simply is; your beliefs, founded on how you see the world right now, don't make a shred of difference.
Quote:
It's an age old tale...which I think is Becker's point.
Anyway, sorry for tapping out.
Cups
Of course; fear of death is extremely evolutionarily advantageous and was probably one of the first things to evolve. That does not necessitate fear as the only "right" response, however, or mean what you fear is necessarily justified.
In the end, we are simply naturally occurring parts of the physical Universe. There is nothing to fear and nothing to hope for.
I am a bit disappointed, though, that you chose to delete your response. I'm sure it would have been insightful.
Edited by NetDiver (09/08/11 12:23 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Death anxiety [Re: NetDiver]
#15047828 - 09/08/11 12:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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That does not necessitate fear as the only "right" response, however, or mean what you fear is necessarily justified.
Becker, Cups nor I would ever dream of thinking this.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck
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Re: Death anxiety [Re: NetDiver]
#15047986 - 09/08/11 12:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I know. On the last page, I said that Becker never touches whether fear of death is justified or not. He just says that fear of death is extremely common (which, of course, there is good biological reason to for) and that it serves as much of the motivation behind our societal institutions.
However, I do think that many adherents do think in this pessimistic fashion, and I thought ([perhaps incorrectly) that that's what Cups was implying. He honestly seems to be approaching it from a pessimistic, nihilistic standpoint ala Camus ("death is there as the only reality") rather than simply as an important factor in the development of societies.
I can largely agree with the death anxiety theory, but with an addendum or two. Firstly, I still don't think you can claim it's universal. That is unverifiable and claiming something unverifiable to be true is unscientific. Secondly, shields should be recognized as sort of a cure for a biologically inherited psychological disease (fear of death) -- not necessarily as lies or deception. That is, if it can be logically and soundly demonstrated that death should not be feared, then that is and should serve as an effective shield for someone who needs to rationally justify their beliefs.
Edited by NetDiver (09/08/11 12:58 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Death anxiety [Re: NetDiver]
#15049149 - 09/08/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You can look at shields as a distraction from the mental awareness of impending impermanence. That is their function and they don't have to be lies.
There is no way to demonstrate that death should not be feared as we don't know what death is.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck
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We don't know what death is, and we don't know what life is either.
I can't think of a fuckin' thing we do know, actually.
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xFrockx
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Loc: Northeast
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Re: Death anxiety [Re: NetDiver]
#15049764 - 09/08/11 06:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You know what knowing is. Trauma. You know this because it is fact.
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Icelander
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Re: Death anxiety [Re: NetDiver]
#15049768 - 09/08/11 06:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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We know that I am the Icelander.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
Wanderer
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gatekeeper 
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Icelander
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Re: Death anxiety [Re: Kickle] 1
#15050583 - 09/08/11 09:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Abandon hope all ye who enter here.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Is philosophy a shied? It seems that way to me. Thinking about death on an intellectual level takes away some of the mystery. Out of shields, it's probably one of the best.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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So is this what it's all about? Shielding out animal urges so we can be at peace?
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Beanhead
IS IRONIC PARADOX
Registered: 10/11/08
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Taken from Epicirus:
Death means nothing to us...when we exist, death is not yet present, and when death is present, then we do not exist, for there is no afterlife after we die. Death, says Epicurus, is the greatest anxiety of all, in length and intensity. This anxiety about death impedes the quality and happiness of one's life by the theory of afterlife: the worrying about whether or not one's deeds and actions in life will translate well into the region of the gods, the wondering whether one will be assigned to an eternity of pain or to an eternity of pleasure.
I really do look at it that simple... Atoms come together... Atoms seperate.
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