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Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Define Life
    #1500583 - 04/28/03 02:04 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Here's something interesting for all you guru's to debate over. It's a topic I had to engage many times in my post graduate studies. Can you define life? What is your basic concept of a living thing? Does it have to breathe. . .Reproduce. . .Eat? I think you'll find that life's a little harder to define then what you might think. To give you an example of exactly how hard it is, 4 of my Biology professors in college, who had their Docterates in Biology, basically locked themselves in a room and knocked their heads together for 4 months trying to write a publication of the definition of life. In the end they failed becuase none of them could find a common ground of what they believed what life consists of.


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Phase 1... collect underpants... phase 2...??? ... Phase 3 - PROFIT!


Edited by djd586 (04/28/03 02:05 PM)


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Offlinequemo
dontknowitall

Registered: 12/19/02
Posts: 137
Loc: worldcitizen
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Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1500602 - 04/28/03 02:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

well, i'm not gonna burn my hands on this baby.... :laugh:

mmmm perhaps i will, but i certainly will take my time for this one, gimme a year or so....but mine will be more philosphical  i guess than biological... (there probably be more than one way of looking at it)... 


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
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Re: Define Life [Re: quemo]
    #1501686 - 04/28/03 08:04 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)



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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
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Re: Define Life [Re: Strumpling]
    #1502018 - 04/28/03 09:57 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

are you talking about organic life?


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Anonymous

Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1502140 - 04/28/03 10:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Life is simply the physical manifestation of "living",and vica versa


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Define Life [Re: Anonymous]
    #1502316 - 04/28/03 11:04 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Life is what happens before death.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1502384 - 04/28/03 11:20 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Consciousness.

Yes, plants have consciousness.


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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
Male

Registered: 12/20/02
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Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1502660 - 04/29/03 12:17 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

life doesnt have to be organic. if a robot was prorgrammed to have a "mind" of its own and could reproduce itself. its life. life has to be able to reproduce. or else it just dissapeers. thats the only constraining qualification i would put on life. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Define Life [Re: blaze2]
    #1502664 - 04/29/03 12:18 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If a robot was programmed to have a 'mind' of it's own, and could reproduce, I would consider it having a consciousness.


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OfflineViBrAnT
WaRpInG &sPiRaLiNg
Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1502720 - 04/29/03 12:33 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

define life, hmmmmmm, life is always changing, therefore we may simply define life as change.


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" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




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Offlineninjahedge
hedge made ofninjas

Registered: 04/14/03
Posts: 58
Loc: here nor there
Last seen: 18 years, 10 days
Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1502752 - 04/29/03 12:42 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yes, plants have consciousness. 




how do you know that? or animals, or anyone you know for that matter?  don't i only know that  I  have a consciousness?  couldn't everyone else be robots that seem like real living people?

just wondering  :grin: maybe plants do.


--------------------
ow, i poked my brain,
now it's leaking all over...
i guess it's ok


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
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Re: Define Life [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1502869 - 04/29/03 01:32 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I would say the ability to reproduce is the defining factor of life.

And yes, plants certainly do have consciousness.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1502886 - 04/29/03 01:43 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

What do you mean 'plants certainly have conciousness'? That's totally unfounded and ridiculous.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Anonymous

Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1502904 - 04/29/03 01:50 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

No it isn't. A plant is a plant. It thinks it's a plant. But not the thought that we would have if we were the plant - "I am a plant." The thought that makes it grow outwards in the perfect way that it does in whatever direction it grows in. That is it's consciousness.


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1502908 - 04/29/03 01:53 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

ridiculous? how so? they are multicelled reproducing living organisms just like you and me, the have stiff cell walls so they stay in one place, we have flexible cell walls so we can move, thats the only diference. How could you say they don't? thats closed minded and unfounded, and rediculous. I suggest you open the ol' third eye in a forest or something and talk to some trees. I'm sure they'll set you straight.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
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Re: Define Life [Re: ]
    #1502913 - 04/29/03 01:55 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Conciousness is the ability to make decisions. A plant doesn't 'decide' to grow in any particular direction. It grows toward sunlight. A lot of you would get a lot more out of this forum if you actually tried using logic in your arguments. A plant may be 'alive', but life does not equate conciousness. A table can be a rectangle, but that doesn't mean all rectangles are tables.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

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Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1502953 - 04/29/03 02:07 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

How do you even begin to define something as complex as life with a language as primitive as English? Or any other tongue spoken by man (woman), for that matter...    I'm  :confused:


If I were to place a bet though, I'd bet that LIFE is just the "Tip of the Iceburg" of it all.  :smile:

 


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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Offlineninjahedge
hedge made ofninjas

Registered: 04/14/03
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Re: Define Life [Re: ]
    #1503008 - 04/29/03 02:25 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

No it isn't. A plant is a plant. It thinks it's a plant. But not the thought that we would have if we were the plant - "I am a plant." The thought that makes it grow outwards in the perfect way that it does in whatever direction it grows in. That is it's consciousness.




wow your ideas of consciousness and thought are way different than mine. you think a plant really "thinks" to grow the way it does? and consciousness seems to me to be the ability to recognize one's own existence and thought. i hardly think a plant has this ability or even has what could be considered thought, but this doesn't mean it isn't alive - my 2 cents


--------------------
ow, i poked my brain,
now it's leaking all over...
i guess it's ok


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
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Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1503051 - 04/29/03 02:52 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"Conciousness is the ability to make decisions"

so if i was wacked in the head by a baseball bat, ended up a vegetable, could still eat, drink and breath, mabey even hear and see, but not have the presence of mind to do anything else, like make desicions, that would mean i have no consiousness? Or if i had a lobotomy, and could no longer make desicions, or do much else besides drool on myself, that would mean i have no consciousness? I disagree. Sounds like a bunch of crap to me.

I belive Consciousness is simply the awareness of being.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
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Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503057 - 04/29/03 02:54 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Alright, awareness of being is another good way to describe it. Still doesn't mean plants have conciousness though, even under that definition.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineViBrAnT
WaRpInG &sPiRaLiNg
Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1503146 - 04/29/03 03:36 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

yet who would give the plants consciousness? certainly not you. of course a plant doesnt think, the thinker observes the plant. were the thinker to more deeply observe the plant, he would in a scense become part of the plant as he is blending with his surroundings, he might be able to sense what the plant is "feeling" in this manner.


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" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




Edited by ViBrAnT (04/29/03 03:37 AM)


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
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Re: Define Life [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #1503168 - 04/29/03 03:44 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting theory, but I don't buy it. You're just spouting rehearsed hippie jumbo with no facts or logic tied to it. I didn't claim to give plants conciousness. You said it yourself 'plants don't think'. Please try again with a semblance of an argument.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
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Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1503170 - 04/29/03 03:44 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Life is like a box of chocolates.......... :crazy:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
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Re: Define Life [Re: Murex]
    #1503192 - 04/29/03 03:53 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

rehersed hippie jumbo, clever. dumbass.

can you prove with facts or logic that plants DONT have consciousness?
No, so until you can, i say they do.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503205 - 04/29/03 03:59 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Just because you say they have conciousness doesn't make it so. You are under the assumption that conciousness can exist outside of a brain. Fine, but then your definition of conciousness is so broad so as to apply to every single sub-atomic particle in the universe. A dildo has conciousness? I think you are confusing 'life' with 'conciousness', they are two very different things. Give me your definition of conciousness and we'll start from there.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1503234 - 04/29/03 04:16 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

every single subatomic particle does have consciousness. the dildo itself? no, but the particles that make up said dildo? certainley. Concsiousness can exist without a brain. Jellyfish have no brain, yet they obviousley have consciousness.

I already gave my definiton-The Awareness of Being

So like i said before, prove plants, or sub-atomic particles for that matter, DONT have concsiousness. You cant do it. Ultimatley there is no right or wrong, only what we choose to belive, i chose to belive they do.

I use this quote way too often, but mabey sooner or later people will catch on.

"It isn't necessarily so, what you belive. You must see that whatever you belive in is'nt necessarily the truth, because the fact that it could be right or wrong is also infinite, that's the whole point of it. The whole being fluid and changing all the time and evolving." -Sir Paul McCartney

Learn from him, he knew.



--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
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Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503249 - 04/29/03 04:27 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Somehow I doubt jellyfish are aware of their own being. But since noone can speak jellyfishese, that will remain an unsolved mystery for now. If consciousness exists within every particle in the universe, then at least we can come to an agreement that it only manifests itself within higher order life forms as opposed to pet rocks and dildos.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1503261 - 04/29/03 04:32 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

i can talk to jellyfish, you cant?

But i will agree with the last part of what you said.

I think what we disagree upon is what the higher order life form is, i say jellyfish and plants quallify, and as I see it, you dont.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


Edited by thestringphish (04/29/03 04:35 AM)


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

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Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503266 - 04/29/03 04:34 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I make it a rule to never talk to something that I eat raw.  :smirk:


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1503268 - 04/29/03 04:35 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

you dont talk to pussy? you should, its fun, and you will soon learn they have a mind of their own.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
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Re: Define Life [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1503271 - 04/29/03 04:37 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If I were a canibal i would still talk to my dinner.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
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Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503385 - 04/29/03 05:44 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

string phish nice name by the way love both the bands anyways you used that quote did you ever think that maybe you should take it to heart and that maybe you're wrong? to quote swami i think it was you cant argue something on the point that it cant be proven to be wrong. you said PROVE that plants dont have a consiousness well thats impossible if it is not there to begin with. im not saying that its not but its not a viable argument. its like saying prove there arent lepercauns, well i wouldnt find one if i looked but you could still say PROVE they that they dont exist or just cause you didnt see one doesn't mean they dont exist. this argument has been used again and again. it they never did exist i would find nothing to prove my point and you would say well they still COULD have. now im NOT a skeptic in genreal but i still dont like to see this argument its pointless and endless. i dont know if plants have consiousness but i dont think that do i think they are alive and reproduce and live in predetermined cycles. they live just so they can reproduce they dont think about it they just grow and live. how can an atom of anything have a consiousness? i really dont understand this one. does the atom "know" what its doing when it reacts to another atom and forms a bond? not likely. heres websters defination

1 a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact c : AWARENESS; especially : concern for some social or political cause
2 : the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : MIND
3 : the totality of conscious states of an individual
4 : the normal state of conscious life <regained consciousness>
5 : the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes

i see one thing that might be on your side number 4 says that its the NORMAL state of conscious life. maybe there are different degrees of conscious life. maybe we are at a "higher" consciouness than plants and therefore they(if they could speak/think) would define it different maybe its only the will to live. i think plants have this they struggle to survive in harsh climates. so now that im done writing this i think that i really dont know wheather or not they have it. but i still dont think that atoms do. we'll probly never know but its something to think about. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Define Life [Re: blaze2]
    #1503407 - 04/29/03 06:03 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

There are four levels of consciousness; mineral, plant, animal, human.. well actually there are seven but for the purpose of this presentation I will only use four. I will attempt to explain as I know how.

Mineral has physical body alone, it has existance, but is not aware of it. Consider this 1st dimensional.

Plant has physical body and etheric body, it has existance and awareness as biological matter, but does not posses self-awareness, it does not associate with what we know as the "I" presence. Or sense of ego.
2nd dimension

Animal has physical body, etheric body, and astral body, it has existance and is aware of it, and has seperate identity and survival instincts, yet no sense of ego.
Human has physical body, etheric body, astral body, and mental body.. we have existance, are fully aware of it, and associate with the ego, or individual consciousness, and the subsequent illusion of seperation.
3rd dimension.

Anyone who has communicated with trees, is sure of the consciousness of plants.


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Offlinegedezia
backlash
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Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503453 - 04/29/03 06:31 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

thestringphish is right bert, youre wrong. just accept it and spare yourself further embarrassment.


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Offlineentiformatie
EvolutionaryMovements
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1503459 - 04/29/03 06:40 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

a plant grows towards sunlight for a damn good reason, the same way we have an urge to have sex. just because we want to have sex, we arent concious? just because we have all this programming embedded in us to make our species survive and procreate, doesnt make us any more concious. Anything that can procreate HAS to be concious of the fact that there is something pushing it reproduce its species. Tables don't just makes little baby tables. Why? Because they aren't concious.

Quote:

Conciousness is the ability to make decisions. A plant doesn't 'decide' to grow in any particular direction. It grows toward sunlight. A lot of you would get a lot more out of this forum if you actually tried using logic in your arguments. A plant may be 'alive', but life does not equate conciousness. A table can be a rectangle, but that doesn't mean all rectangles are tables.




--------------------
/opinion
.sean


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1503462 - 04/29/03 06:45 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

A plant may be 'alive', but life does not equate conciousness.
A table can be a rectangle, but that doesn't mean all rectangles are tables.


Nor does a rectangle define all aspects of a table.



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Edited by Shroomism (04/29/03 06:49 AM)


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Offlinecleaner
Stranger

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Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503517 - 04/29/03 07:26 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ridiculous? how so? they are multicelled reproducing living organisms just like you and me, the have stiff cell walls so they stay in one place, we have flexible cell walls so we can move, thats the only diference. How could you say they don't? thats closed minded and unfounded, and rediculous. I suggest you open the ol' third eye in a forest or something and talk to some trees. I'm sure they'll set you straight.




Yes my friend. But at times like this you have to remember that some people a very stupid, part of that stupidiy is genetic , part - aquired. And no matter what you do to them they will never get it.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
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Re: Define Life [Re: entiformatie]
    #1504562 - 04/29/03 03:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Nope, try again. You are using some horrid reasoning here. We procreate because we 'decide' to procreate. A plant has zero say in whether it procreates or not. It is entirely out of its control. Just because something can procreate does not mean it has consciousness. You just made that up and it has no premise. Furthermore, you are continuing to use reverse reasoning. Try a little experiment. Take a male plant and a female plant of the same species during pollenation and place them together. They will invariably reproduce. Take a man and a woman and place them in the same room and no matter how long they sit there, if they don't 'want' to reproduce, they simply won't do it.
Also, we have already decided on the definition of consciousness for this thread. That being 'awareness of self'. You jumped right in and whimsically made up your own definition as 'ability to procreate'. What about a virus? Viruses can't survive without a host body to feed off of. They don't even have a nucleus, you want to suggest that maybe SARs is conscious of what it is doing? I recently read a very good book called 'Emergence' that you should check out. It is an interesting and fairly simple read that may explain to many of you why procreation does not equal consciousness.



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Invisiblebert
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Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1504589 - 04/29/03 03:31 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Shroomism, bring me a source where you got your '4 levels of Consciousness'.
It is not pushing the debate further at all because it is not grounded in anything.
The only thing that can stand up to scrutiny is experimentation. So maybe we should do an experiment. You say you can communicate with plants and many others can as well. You also claim telepathic skills. So why not incorporate plants into the telepathy challenge? We can do a double blind experiment and see if both you and another 'plant telepath' can ascertain the same knowledge from the same plant from a remote location.


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Edited by bert (04/29/03 03:42 PM)


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Offlineninjahedge
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1504613 - 04/29/03 03:38 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

bert i am totally with you - plants don't have consciousness....and neither do subatomic particles. you people have some seriously whacked concepts of consciousness. give humans some credit...


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Offlineentiformatie
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1504678 - 04/29/03 04:03 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

i disagree. we don't reproduce because we choose to.

i didnt just make up that procreation = conciousness. it's something i believe. kinda how you might believe in your own things.

and yes, i do believe that virus's are quite aware of their own existence. maybe unaware of the feelings of others tho, i dunno. but the way they thrive off of human life, and happen to destory it in the process definitely shows some kind of conciousness.

i find your example of using a man and a woman in a room a bad one. The only reason that they do not want to is society's inhibitions, and factors that humans made up, like ugly or pretty.

can you control the blood running in your veins? can you control your hormone levels (without funky pills)? no. even if you are concious, you don't have COMPLETE control over bodily functions. the same way a plant might not have control over the need to procreate. Maybe plants realize their species is dieing, and they don't give a fuck whether that elm next to them is hot as fuck.


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Offlinedjd586
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Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1504684 - 04/29/03 04:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Ok guys... you made some good points. Having the ablity to think or have consciousness is certainly not a precursor to defining life. Bateria, fungi and other single cell orgainims do no thinking at all, they simply act out what their DNA tells them to do. Many scientist actually believed to be alive an organism must be able to reproduce itself and pass along it's genetic information. Thus one could say that having a simple genetic code to pass along to offsrping is the answer to defining life. Well that's all well and good, BUT in 1999 and computer programer developed a program that simulated life and all ascpects of it. The computer bugs had a genetic makeup of binary language. They reproduced asexually and passed along their genetic make up to the next generation. In all respects, these computer criters ate, reproduced, mutated, consumed energy and space and died.

It was this very program that sent a shock wave through the biology comunity. Is this life? Can we define it as life? Or do we just need to redefine life as we know it?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Define Life [Re: entiformatie]
    #1504697 - 04/29/03 04:10 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

All life on earth has DNA.


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1504756 - 04/29/03 04:27 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

We have certainly gotten off topic discussing consciousness when this thread is about life. What about self-replicating computer viruses? Hasn't this technology been around a bit longer than 1999? Computer viruses can replicate and pass along it's 'genetic information' and I think some can even adapt although don't hold me to that. I think life can exist in a purely virtual setting as long as it follows the guidelines of self-replication, passing along genetic information, and having the ability to adapt to its environment.


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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1505303 - 04/29/03 06:58 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

okay, if humans have consciousness, what is this consciousness composed of? chemical reactions?

and if plants do not have consciousness, and when we ingest them, and the chemicals they are composed of, which results in a new chemical reaction in our brain, are we not ingesting their consciousness?


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Re: Define Life [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1505332 - 04/29/03 07:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think consciousness is chemical reactions alone. Nor is it simply electric signals from neurons. Nor is it simply biological tissue. Only when there is a highly intricate interplay between them all is there a coherent consciousness formed. For instance, you can eat a magic mushroom and have it affect your consciousness. That doesn't neccessarily mean it has it's own consciousness, it means that it is augmenting our consciousness. We defined consciousness as 'awareness of being'. The minute someone gets a magic mushroom to fill out a questionnaire regarding its existance, I'll acknowledge fungal and/or plant consciousness. I would be willing to venture that higher order primates have consciousness though and possibly dolphins? I don't know enough about that to make a serious claim, though.


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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1505400 - 04/29/03 07:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I would just say that life is really "a state of always changing"...that covers evolution and all forms of life. (ex: a flower blooming is always changing, it has life)


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Re: Define Life [Re: LeViTY]
    #1505512 - 04/29/03 08:00 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

well LeViTY, that description includes anything in the universe, not just living beings.....

the moon is always changing; is IT alive?


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Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1505552 - 04/29/03 08:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Are viruses alive? Some biologist want to exclued them from the life label.


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Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1505952 - 04/29/03 10:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

yes i think they are alive they may be the most primitive form of it but they are. they can reproduce and evolve so i think they are definately life although i have hear that argument.


"and yes, i do believe that virus's are quite aware of their own existence. maybe unaware of the feelings of others tho, i dunno. but the way they thrive off of human life, and happen to destory it in the process definitely shows some kind of conciousness. "

out they dont have a consciousness and that is for sure they dont know what they are doing and just cuase they destroy human life does not make them alive. if a combine rips a mans arm off does that make it conscious? it depends on us to put the gas in it, does that make it conscious? of course not only a moron would think so. life isnt dependent on consciousness but consciousness is dependent on life. thats my conclusion. peace

blaze2


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Re: Define Life [Re: blaze2]
    #1506191 - 04/30/03 12:12 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"anyways you used that quote did you ever think that maybe you should take it to heart and that maybe you're wrong? "

Sure, i belive those words very strongly and always give other peoples ideas a chance, but if i was to completley give up beliving anything, there would be nothing to argue, and that's no fun :smile: What i try to do is simply give a decent argument for what i feel is right, and see if somebody can convince me otherwise, if they can, great, that means i've learned something, and thats why i'm here. I only use the quote when it seems to me like someone has a concrete belife in thier head and won't even consider other possibilities no matter what the argument is. Nobody knows the answers, my friend, we just have ideas, I'm simply searching for the best ones.

"to quote swami i think it was you cant argue something on the point that it cant be proven to be wrong. you said PROVE that plants dont have a consiousness well thats impossible if it is not there to begin with. im not saying that its not but its not a viable argument"

Is Swami the guy who try's to tell people about thier bad argument teqniques? Don't quote that. please. You'll just encourage him.

I know he cant prove me wrong that way, i even said he couldent, I was simply trying to manipulate the argument, see if i could get him to try. Just trying to make the argument a little more interesting i guess. 


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1506213 - 04/30/03 12:20 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Without good arguing technique and logical reasoning/deduction, there would be no purpose for this forum and it would degenerate into a big circle jerk. It's the only way to properly develop an idea or have a discussion.


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Offlineninjahedge
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1506245 - 04/30/03 12:35 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

getting back to the point, if you've ever taken a biology course you probably learned that for the most part, with a few exceptions - the following constitute life:

1. specific or complex organization
2. Metabolism
3. Homeostasis
4. Growth
5. Response to stimuli
6. reproduction (passing on genetic info)
7. adaptation (have ability to evolve)

now this is a strictly scientific view as to what life is, and i'm not saying i agree with it, but it makes some sense. yes plants are alive, no they don't have consciousness, at least by my definition of that term. If you want to go and get all spiritual and hippy about it that's your deal, but i'm going to maintain that those buggers aren't conscious.


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Offlinethestringphish
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Re: Define Life [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1506254 - 04/30/03 12:39 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

i'm going to maintain that i'm spiritual and hippy about it.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1506263 - 04/30/03 12:43 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

LIFE is a board game.



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OfflineGrav
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Re: Define Life [Re: Grav]
    #1506276 - 04/30/03 12:48 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

anyone ever think plants are like the hair on our skin? is our hair alive???
maybe the plants' have a consciousness that we can not see
i'll write a book about it and then call myself Rugbert SevenChins.


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Define Life [Re: Grav]
    #1506278 - 04/30/03 12:48 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

One of my favorites, although looking back on it now...it gave a very skewed and twisted view of what life should be.


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1506485 - 04/30/03 02:15 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Uh huh, life's like this:

And you fall and you crawl and you break and you take what you get and you turn it into honesty :grin:


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Re: Define Life [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1506615 - 04/30/03 03:14 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

yea i dont usually agree with the swamster but on that he DOES have a point.  also he wont be encouraged i think hes temporarily banned at the moment. 

ninja the point of this was to rethink what constitutes life not repeat what is already in the books.  those rules apply to our world and we have no way of knowing that they will be valid in an alien ecosystem(if such exist). 

ill aknowledge that there is a chance for plants to have consciousness(not atoms tho)  if you will aknowledge that theres equal chance that they dont.  and then we can forget about this argument that will never end :smile: peace

blaze2


--------------------
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Re: Define Life [Re: blaze2]
    #1506654 - 04/30/03 03:45 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

i can do that, it's been fun:grin:


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Offlineninjahedge
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Re: Define Life [Re: blaze2]
    #1507278 - 04/30/03 12:37 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

surely it's possible, for anything is. but my view is that they have no consciousness. you're entitled to your opinion, which i respect. thanks for the discussion all.


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Re: Define Life [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1507297 - 04/30/03 12:43 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

getting back to the point, if you've ever taken a biology course you probably learned that for the most part, with a few exceptions - the following constitute life:

1. specific or complex organization
2. Metabolism
3. Homeostasis
4. Growth
5. Response to stimuli
6. reproduction (passing on genetic info)
7. adaptation (have ability to evolve)




As a Biologist, I can tell you that 2, 3, 4, 5, are wrong in terms of defining life... Not all living things have an active matabolism. Not all living things have the ability of homeostasis, i.e. reptiles. Not all living things grow; Bacteria never increase or decrease in size. Not all living things have a complex nervous system and thus cannot respond to stimuli.

What I'm looking for as a defintion of life is a concept that can devide what life is in nature and life that con be simulated on a computer program.


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Define Life [Re: LeViTY]
    #1507400 - 04/30/03 01:21 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

In Reply to Levity:

"This," he said playing with it, "is a stone, and will, after a
certain time, perhaps turn into soil, and will turn from soil into a
plant or animal or human being. In the past, I would have said: This
stone is just a stone, it is worthless, it belongs to the world of the
Maja; but because it might be able to become also a human being and a
spirit in the cycle of transformations, therefore I also grant it
importance. Thus, I would perhaps have thought in the past. But today
I think: this stone is a stone, it is also animal, it is also god, it is
also Buddha, I do not venerate and love it because it could turn into
this or that, but rather because it is already and always everything


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Offlineninjahedge
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Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1507738 - 04/30/03 03:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

As a Biologist, I can tell you that 2, 3, 4, 5, are wrong in terms of defining life... Not all living things have an active matabolism. Not all living things have the ability of homeostasis, i.e. reptiles. Not all living things grow; Bacteria never increase or decrease in size. Not all living things have a complex nervous system and thus cannot respond to stimuli.




which living things don't have metabolism? i believe reptiles also regulate internal cell environments by means such as membrane pumps i.e. sodium/potassium protein pump to maintain cell ion concentration and voltage gradients....while no they don't regulate body temperature internally, don't they still regulate this by physically changing their environment (shade vs sunlight etc?)...doesn't this qualify as homeostasis? I don't think by growth it necessarily mean size - rather progression from one cell stage to another in the cell cycle resulting in growth of the general population of that species - which don't bacteria do in the process of binary fission? and don't some bacteria incr/decr in size? Do you need a complex nervous system to respond to stimuli? do jelly fish have a CNS? no but yet they will sting prey when tentacles are stimulated.

anyway i am no degreed biologist but merely a student. the criteria i posted for life were those given to me by an established biology professor/scientist at a pretty reputable university. but i still think defining life in general is very objective, and to call any definition wrong outright (to me) seems quite silly, especially coming from a biologist. i'm not claiming that which i posted is true by anymeans, just providing another angle (purely scientific) to the discussion. i mean you no offense - thanks for your response.


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Re: Define Life [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1507942 - 04/30/03 04:13 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not dicrediting your post. Yes you gave a scientific respose in terms of trying to define life. Before I graduated graduate shcool I was forced to define life many times and I would give an answer similar to the one you gave. My professors boggled over the biological definition for months not coming to any conclusion. In the end I did come across the definition of life. It's rather simple, more philisophical then scientiffic.


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Offlinekangoo
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Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1508249 - 04/30/03 05:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I think Shroomism answered the question very cleverly!
I totally agree with him.
Another point is that, every thing that posesses some kind of consciousness,
past the second dimension, have their strongest impulse as the "will" to survive and grow stronger, better and more adapted.
They will do anything to survive. But here are us humans different, some of us will even commit suicide! That i do find weird. I have never heard of a plant or an animal commiting suicide?!? =)

And to Shroomism what are the other dimensions of consciousness?

PLUR =) =) =)


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Re: Define Life [Re: kangoo]
    #1508324 - 04/30/03 06:03 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

How did he answer the question cleverly?

"There are four levels of consciousness; mineral, plant, animal, human.. "

What does this quote even mean? Did you read his posts and actually think at all? You can't arbitrarily divide consciousness into categories like Earth, wind, and fire. Well..you can if you want, but it won't hold up in a real discussion because it's not based on anything other than whimsy.

"Another point is that, every thing that posesses some kind of consciousness,
past the second dimension, have their strongest impulse as the "will" to survive and grow stronger, better and more adapted."

Past the second dimension? Are you suggesting that there exists consciousness below the 2nd dimension as in a point? Please explain.

"But here are us humans different, some of us will even commit suicide! That i do find weird. I have never heard of a plant or an animal commiting suicide?!? =)"

Mother chimps sometimes starve themselves to death after the loss of an offspring.





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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1509093 - 04/30/03 10:36 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Rocks have consciousness, they are just not conscious. A rock exists, but it is not aware of its existance. A rock is.


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509151 - 04/30/03 10:55 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If it is not aware of it's own being, then it is not conscious. It is something else. I'll even let you make up another term for it. But it is not what we are talking about.


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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1509172 - 04/30/03 11:01 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Not from a human's ego perspective, no.


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Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509184 - 04/30/03 11:04 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

That's what we are talking about. Consciousness from a human's perspective. Anything can be anything from anything's perspective. The color green is gray to a dog. X is Y to Z. If we followed your reasoning, it would be impossible to have an organized argument of anything. Because nothing would have a basis and that is a self-defeating train of thought. Toot toot.


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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1509201 - 04/30/03 11:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Don't think about the tree, be the tree.


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Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509317 - 04/30/03 11:35 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

sigh - they'll always have some vagueness to counter with eh, bert?


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ow, i poked my brain,
now it's leaking all over...
i guess it's ok


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: ninjahedge]
    #1509321 - 04/30/03 11:36 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Don't think about the vagueness, ninjahedge. Be the vagueness.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1509381 - 04/30/03 11:48 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If vague ye perceive, vague shall it be.

Life does not conform to the expectations of human ego.


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
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Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1509705 - 05/01/03 01:14 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

nor does the expectations of human ego conform to life.



--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
Male

Registered: 12/20/02
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Re: Define Life [Re: thestringphish]
    #1509840 - 05/01/03 02:00 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

do
or do not
there is no try

lol i cant help but read the last few posts and think about that. now yoda there was a guy who had it all figured out. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Define Life [Re: Shroomism]
    #1510171 - 05/01/03 03:23 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

do "events" have consciousness?

edit(addition): or "processes?"


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


Edited by Strumpling (05/01/03 03:26 AM)


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Offlinekangoo
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Registered: 08/12/02
Posts: 80
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Define Life [Re: Strumpling]
    #1510711 - 05/01/03 10:37 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Hey take it easy bert =)
Both you and Shroomism are right, it's just a question of definition of the term "consciousness".
You see it from the "human's ego perspective" (as Shroomism wrote).
For me Shroomisms definition is true.

To Bert:
"What does this quote even mean? Did you read his posts and actually think at all? You can't arbitrarily divide consciousness into categories like Earth, wind, and fire. Well..you can if you want, but it won't hold up in a real discussion because it's not based on anything other than whimsy."

You understand his quote, or YOU don't. You clearly do not understand what he is
writing, but thats ok, whatever makes you happy and peaceful Right? :wink:
Who are you to decide what a "real" discussion is? And what do you base your arguments on? Harcore facts, science, fantasy?

"Past the second dimension? Are you suggesting that there exists consciousness below the 2nd dimension as in a point? Please explain."

Yes! As I said I agree with Shroomism, and if you don't get it, there's really nothing more for me to explain. Maybe it's not the "consciousness" you define, but as I see it, yes! It does exist consciousness below the 2nd dimension, in the way Shroomism explained it.

"Mother chimps sometimes starve themselves to death after the loss of an offspring."

Then you taught me something, but I've never heard of a fish or a plant doing something like that. I still find it weird. =)

"Don't think about the vagueness, ninjahedge. Be the vagueness. "

Good one =)

Peace out ;P











--------------------
Divine moments of truth occurs when watching
lucy in the sky with diamonds!


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: Define Life [Re: kangoo]
    #1511309 - 05/01/03 02:14 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I understand what Shroomism is saying. Or rather I've 'felt' it. But I'm just not firmly or entirely convinced that is the only way you can view it. Personally, I think facts and science are more useful for talking about certain issues. If Shroomism could come up with a different vocabulary to describe what he's talking about, perhaps I could understand it better without being put off by the overall vagueness. I'm never content to settle on one thing, one belief. Always better to keep pushing ahead.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlinekangoo
ONEVIBE

Registered: 08/12/02
Posts: 80
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Define Life [Re: bert]
    #1513882 - 05/02/03 04:40 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

That I can respect, you don't go for "simple" solutions, but wants to push the envelope further?
I'm am not saying that Shroomisms point of view is the only way you can view it, I think your view also is right. I really understand both your views, and in a weird way they are both true to me!
If anyone can come up with something better, well hey! Just do it! =)
I respect anyone who can stand for something and explain why they do so, in a somewhat reasonable manner!

Peace to all, and have a smashing weekend!
PS: For those of you who are from Canada! Lucky Bastards! Decriminalizing Marihuana =)


--------------------
Divine moments of truth occurs when watching
lucy in the sky with diamonds!


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OfflineFliquid
Back from being gone.
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Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 6,953
Loc: omotive
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Define Life [Re: djd586]
    #1513894 - 05/02/03 04:54 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

In our enviroment life is based on certain things we see in ourselfs.
But does that mean that anything that does not move, is not alive?
We will not know. Unless it shows us it is.

Rocks could be alive, and we would not see it. Only because it does not fullfil our standards on what is a living thing.

So i guess my answer is anything that moves its self, is alive. And that does not mean it has to move around. It could also stay at one place and just move internally...


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:


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