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OfflineAdamist
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The Uber-Man vs the humbled man.
    #1500491 - 04/28/03 01:13 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Is 'The Way' (or the Tao) really greater than the 'Will to Power', as it claims? Or is Taoism just another opiate to keep the masses inert?

The Tao Te Ching says "When nothing is done, Nothing is left undone."

What do you think? Should we seize our destinies or should we let the world take it's course?

I will give more of my opinion once others have responded.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Adamist]
    #1500504 - 04/28/03 01:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think seizing your destiny could be the world taking it's course... it's all a matter of being afraid to do so or not...
afraid of violating some natural order of things or something.... ?


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OfflineGrav
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Grav]
    #1500517 - 04/28/03 01:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

like being afraid to just not give a fuck how polite you are, and just go wherever your mind really wants to take you.. Theres like some barrier there, and Im not sure what its all about, but Im trying to cross it, just for the sake of doing so.... something's telling me this will ultimately lead to a state of peace, a firm stand against the "fear of something that hasn't and very possibly will never happen".

and the whole time i feel like i'm playing a game of hide & seek with self indulgence.


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Adamist]
    #1500579 - 04/28/03 02:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Good question. Taking life as it comes would mean that you are completely comfortable with things as they are- you are at peace and don't need to see things in any particular way. I think if one could ever reach such a state, all action thereafter would not be out of a NEED to see things in a certain way... but then where would it come from? Err... it would be less compulsive and defensive in nature that's for sure.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflineMurex
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: buttonion]
    #1500775 - 04/28/03 03:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think it means to live in the moment.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineDogomush
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Adamist]
    #1500868 - 04/28/03 03:59 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not sure your interpretation of that "when nothing in done, nothing is left undone" is exactly right. Well, maybe it's right but it's not complete. I like this subject and I'm glad someone else starts talking about daoism every now and then. Here's a story that has something to do with what you're saying about "going with the flow"

The Realized One (that's his name) was a daoist student. He went off into the mountains, where he found the South Goose Beach daoist. He asked this man, who was his master "how long have you been in the mountains for?" He answered

Court gowns of red and purple are not attractive.
Instead, I love white clouds and emerald mountaintops.
So I sit in solitude, forgetting the year or month
While in the mundane world below, lifetimes and generations pass.

Another daoist, Danger Evader, heard this, and commented that all things changed in the world and he changed with them. He was aware of all things but aloof from them.

Like a raft adrift on the ocean
It does not matter where I float or stop.
Reaching the Dao is a matter of continuous motion.
True nature is born from profound splendor.

The characters in this story personify three levels.. the student asking questions (who is accomplished enough to have entered the mountains), the first master who leaves the world in favour of contemplation, and the third master who doesn't give a fuck what happens. All he does is continuously move across the sea of dao and doesn't care about anything.

So, I guess according to the story writer at the highest level nothing matters at all. You just chill out.. I wonder if you smoke weed..

So that was somewhat related to the quote

"When nothing is done, Nothing is left undone."

Another way to get across the meaning of this:

There was this martial artist named Dong Haichuan (1796-1880). The peak of pre-firearms fighting is a style called bagua zhang (eight triagram palm). This style is based on the Yi Ching (book of changes). The basic training for this is walking around in circles. This likely originates from a daoist qi gong called the circle worship of heaven, where daoists walk around around and around. Students of Dong Haichuan's were all masters of other styles, and Dong Haichuan would adapt the principles of bagua to whatever style they were already skilled at (well, before they'd get into the meat of bagua they had to walk around in circles for 3 years. Actually, what am I saying, circle walking IS the meat of bagua).

Footwork is the most important skill for a bagua practicioner to have. The style's based on the assumption that you're fighting multiple opponents. If you can take on 10 opponents, then you can take on 1000, because only so many can attack you at once. Sounds cocky, yes? Well, bagua players are SUPER cocky, because their style is based (like taiji and shing yi) on fundamental principles of the universe. In combat they're hurricanes, forest fires, and mountains.

But the KEY to bagua, and the relevance to the quote you have from the yi ching, is this: The bagua fighter controls the negative space around the opponent(s). The style is based on the good ol' action through inaction, which is one of the things your quote is getting at. Is this clear?

Ok, now we're going to go to the Taiji diagram to flesh this thing out:
The Taiji (the supreme ultimate) is the circle with yang rising on the left (white) and yin descending on the right (black). Any taiji diagram should always have white rising on the left and black lowering on the right, because that's how these energies move through our bodies.



So to get where I'm going I gotta explain Qi (chi). Qi doesn't exist. It doesn't fall out of our bodies like blood when you're cut, and it doesn't exist without life. When you look a dead body, there is no qi left. Some say qi is your life force, and yes that's true but it doesn't mean anything. Qi is the product of interaction between yin and yang. There are tons of different kinds of qi. The kind in our bodies is human qi (mind you there are lots of kinds of qi in our bodies, this is the simplified version). Our body's yin is our "Jing." When a body is dead, you see jing lying on the ground in the form of a body. Jing is sperm in men and hormones in women. When it's translated it's "essence."

The yang aspect of our bodies is Sheng. Sheng often translates as "spirit." It is our head, our pineal gland. I smoked DMT for the first time a while ago, and I've concluded that smoked DMT is all about sheng. When I smoked DMT, and recently, when I watched my bro smoke DMT, I noticed that there's a certain kind of tiredness. You sit back and go Ughhhhh. This is a good example of how sheng and jing (yang and yin) interact. You smoke DMT and Sheng goes off the wall, so Jing has to counter balance by going off the wall as well. The overstimulated Sheng burns away jing, producing a state where you don't really care to jump up and run around.

This is about to tie back into your quote, hang in there! So there's an expensive book lying on the ground. The little kid runs by it, doesn't care that the expensive book is being trashed. Dad comes home "Who LEFT MY FUCKING BOOK ON THE FLOOR IT COST ME TWENTY BUCKS!!! ROAAAR!!!" He burns off Qi getting all mad. You could say the person who put the book on the floor took his energy if you were into the celestine prophecy. But the book didn't irritate the little kid. Why not?? Because their respective sheng are calibrated differently . It's all about how you hold your mind. You can allow yourself to be annoyed, to have your energy taken from you, or you can hold your sheng differently. With this in mind let's look at the quote:

"When nothing is done, Nothing is left undone."

When you don't think you have to do anything, you don't have to do anything. It's all about how you see things. If you decide something isn't worth stressing out about, then you won't stress out. I think that's another pretty good way to interpret this quote. This ties in with the third daoist master in the story I started out with. It's all good. He just floats on the sea of dao letting nothing overturn his little raft.

One more thing about the whole inaction is action thing that the quote is about: The principle I mentioned about DMT use burning out your jing is a way yin and yang interact. When there is lots of one, the other will compensate so that they can reach the taiji, or the supremely ultimate superior infinate state (ignore embellishment). So, inaction CAUSES action. Yin will bring yang and vice versa. If you could throw yang bombs, then the yang bomb would land with all it's yang, and then yin would appear, then yang in reaction to the yin, then more yin, yang, yin, yang (big bang anyone? Or maybe the pre-birth DMT (yang/sheng) rush that animates our body as a continuous chemical reaction of yin and yang? I don't know, I'm not a chinese doctor).

So there ya go, that's my take on the quote and what it has to say about the dao. The irritating thing about the dao is that "the true dao is not the dao that can be put into words." That's right, it's hopeless. Nobody can ever explain it.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1501364 - 04/28/03 06:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Nietzsche's "Ubermensch" IS experiencing the enlightenment which ol' Siddhartha found under that tree so many years ago.

The only difference is that Nietzsche had to speak with a sharp tongue to cut through the bullshit his culture was so infatuated with. Yessir, Fred was quite aware of Buddhism (as was one of his idols, Schopenhauer).


--------------------
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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1501416 - 04/28/03 06:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

throughout chinese history, the government has used daoism as a form of control...the best example of this is the Tang dynasty.(618-907)

-throughout ancient chinese history there prophecies about a man named Li, which is the family name of the Tang rulers as well as Laozi(li er). This man "Li" was prophecized to be the Lord of Great Peace.

-so the Tang leaders claimed that this prophecized figure was Laozi....who ultimatly came to be known as "lord lao".

-the Tang leaders also claimed that Lord Lao was their original ancestor, and through serving as the leader's ancestors...he was taking interest in the fate of the country.

--so throughout the Tang dynasty...this so-called lord-lao appeared on numerous occasions to perform miracles (made a withered cypress bloom again etc)
-the daoist institutions of the time supported the government's claim of divine ancestry, which religiously legitimized Tang rule. Consequently, these institutions were given state sponsorship, and the rulers lavished great gifts on monastaries and temples.
-all of this resulted in the elevation of daoism. State sponsered temples were built everywhere with statues of lord lao inside. All non-daoist temples were converted to daoist temples, these temples became institutions for daoist education and training grounds for daoist bureucrats.
-daoism's membership exploded, and as a consequence, while supporting the religious organization, the Tang rulers established a system of official control.
-All ordinations had to be formally permitted by the state, and all daoists had to carry official ordination certificates, as travel permits and exemptions from tax and labour. and....for the first time, legal codes governed civil law AND infractions of religious precepts.
-eventually....lord lao became synonymous with the government. in 741, a mysterious statue of lord lao was miraculously "discouvered" and the emporer decreed that all districts had to erect temples with replicas of this statue...along side...with a statue of the emperor-who was to be worshipped alongside lord lao.

eventually....everything daoist was absorbed into the government and altered accordingly.



--------------------
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OfflineDogomush
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1501431 - 04/28/03 06:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

By definition, daoism isn't static, it's dynamic, so it makes perfect sense that it would be used as you say.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1501443 - 04/28/03 06:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

exactly, thats why I think zhuangzi is way cooler than laozi, because his interpretation of the dao limits governmental control, while laozi's interpretation legitimizes it.


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1501463 - 04/28/03 06:59 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

well, my suggestion to you is... WAKE UP!!!!!!!!


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1501485 - 04/28/03 07:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

oh my god...wake up

how come I wasnt able to understand until now...

all i had to do was "wake up" its so simple

i just opened my third eye....now I understand everything.

thank you dogomush.....thank you.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1503293 - 04/29/03 04:55 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

LOL


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Offlinethestringphish
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1503341 - 04/29/03 05:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

if you want to be into Taoism stick with the Tao Te Ching, if you need more texts to help you understand it it's probably not the right thing for you. It's beauty is it's simplicity, these other texts just muck things up. Taoism should'nt be an organized religion, should not have temples, and should in no way be an establishment of anykind. People take something beautifull and go to town with it untill it's a disgusting mess, which in turn makes people discredit it's greatness.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: thestringphish]
    #1503349 - 04/29/03 05:20 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"these other texts just muck things up"

have you read the zhuangzi?

you last quote is like saying...."if you want to be into psychology, stick with freud"

"Taoism should'nt be an organized religion...."

the daodejing legitimizes preistly control, and consequently legitimizes an organized daoism. read the zhuangzi....I think it fits better into your ideal of what daoism should be.

also- laozi did not invent the idea of a "dao" that idea arose long before his time.


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Edited by atomikfunksoldier (04/29/03 05:29 AM)


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1504015 - 04/29/03 12:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

By definition daoism isn't static, so you can't really say

Taoism should'nt be an organized religion, should not have temples, and should in no way be an establishment of anykind.

daoism should be whatever


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Grav]
    #1510186 - 05/01/03 03:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry for taking so long to respond but I lack consistent internet access.

Quote:

I think seizing your destiny could be the world taking it's course...


Interesting point... I still think this conflicts with the traditional view of the Tao, though.

Quote:

afraid of violating some natural order of things or something.... ?


Something like that... I constantly have an inner conflict about whether or not I should attempt to do anything in this world when over-all it doesn't seem to matter if I do or not. Sometimes I fear that using my will to create or alter things is like "buying into" this world... Sometimes I wonder if we create our own prisons here, to learn lessons...


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1510206 - 05/01/03 03:35 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I bet you're an interesting chap to talk to in-person. If I ever wind up around BC we should meet at a chowder shop or something...


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Sclorch]
    #1510213 - 05/01/03 03:38 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Sclorch I know you've read Nietzsche as well as the Tao Te Ching. Can you go into a little more detail as to why you think ole Fred's ideas don't conflict with those common in Eastern philosophy?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: The Uber-Man vs the humbled man. [Re: Adamist]
    #1510294 - 05/01/03 04:16 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

He wrote an empowered version of the Tao for a western audience.
METAPHOR... like the Bible. His writing style borrowed heavily from the Bible.

It is my personal view that the Tao, the Bible (the New testament mainly- the old testament was more primitive), the teachings of Buddha, and Nietzsche all share the same underlying message.

STOP

Just take a moment and think about those writings.
What are they about?
Personal Trascendence.
That's right.

Buddha told his audience to focus on the concept of 'all is one'.
The Tao teaches it's readers to focus on mindfulness.
The Bible talks of praying (a focusing technique) to an ethereal 'God' that watches over us all.

Nietzsche says "God is dead {as a focusing technique}" but he says he didn't kill him. In this he means that the focusing technique has been lost in the ritual. He says that 'going through the motions' has taken the place of meaningful ritual. He urges his readers to become aware of themselves and take charge of their own minds. In other words... mindfulness.

That's enough for now... you don't want to spoil your dinner, do you?


--------------------
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