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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
What do you know for sure?
    #1498226 - 04/27/03 05:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

What do you know for sure? I don?t claim to know any absolute truths, and question the whole idea of absolute truth in general. The closest thing to truth for me is non-dualistic ?experience.? EXPERIENCE. Not, ?I am experiencing?- that is a description of experience. And not ?experiencing,? which implies a thing experiencing other things. Just the whole experience that is life, an idea that cannot really be expressed in our dualistic language system. I think supposed truths based on descriptions of this experience are more accurately expressed as ?useful models.? I think to think that one knows an ?absolute universal truth? is pretty arrogant (not to be taken as a personal attack). To think that animals who have evolved on a particular planet, who have evolved tools to ensure their survival on that planet, can use these same tools to somehow comprehend everything? I judge the probability of this occuring to be very low.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,134
Loc: heart cave
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: buttonion]
    #1498245 - 04/27/03 05:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I exist.


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OfflineSWAY
SurrealPhantasmicSubConscious

Registered: 04/12/03
Posts: 71
Loc: A Dream...
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: Revelation]
    #1498296 - 04/27/03 06:14 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I dont think anything is going to ever be FOR SURE or TRUE, cuz i dont think there is such thing as 'TRUE' or 'UNTRUE' just like i dont think thers such thing as 'RIGHT' or 'WRONG' and its all based on our own perception and what we think to be 'true' and 'right' or 'untrue' and 'wrong'

Revelation, you dont FOR SURE exist, this might just all be a dream and your already dead, or a past memory your living

S W A Y


--------------------
?People keep searching for happines in the outside, what they don't know is that it's in the inside?
?In an infinite universe, anything that can exist, must exist? Bear
?To think too long about doing a thing often becomes its undoing? Eva Young


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Anonymous

Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: buttonion]
    #1498314 - 04/27/03 06:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

There are very few things that can be known with certitude.  These fall into the range of what the ancient Greeks called episteme, everything else is doxa or opinion, not to be confused with 'mere' opinion.

I am certain that I exist and that an external universe exists outside my mind.  This is also not meant as a personal attack but anyone who cannot acknowledge that is either extremely confused or ignorant (lacking knowledge).

I think this type of argument stems from an unwillingness to accept any moral Truths.

Cheers,  (nice to see you start a thread :smile:


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: ]
    #1498325 - 04/27/03 06:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think there's anything wrong with being confused. The only thing I'm absolutely certain of is that I'm not absolutely certain of any of my beliefs.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 14 years, 6 days
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: bert]
    #1498336 - 04/27/03 06:36 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"What do you know for sure? I don?t claim to know any absolute truths, and question the whole idea of absolute truth in general"

this is why we have science...to prove absolute truths.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineSWAY
SurrealPhantasmicSubConscious

Registered: 04/12/03
Posts: 71
Loc: A Dream...
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1498388 - 04/27/03 07:04 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

"I am certain that I exist and that an external universe exists outside my mind. This is also not meant as a personal attack but anyone who cannot acknowledge that is either extremely confused or ignorant (lacking knowledge)."

Ok then limit yourself to it, i'm going to believe that there is no boundaries and i dont want to bind myself to the rest of society and live in a black and white world, plus most of society believes in that and i consider most of society to be somewhat ignorant, and what you call 'confusion' might just be having an open mind

no offense meant, i just strongly disagree with you

S W A Y


--------------------
?People keep searching for happines in the outside, what they don't know is that it's in the inside?
?In an infinite universe, anything that can exist, must exist? Bear
?To think too long about doing a thing often becomes its undoing? Eva Young


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OfflineMithril
Among Other Things

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 160
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1498561 - 04/27/03 08:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

>>this is why we have science...to prove absolute truths.

Does science prove absolute truths? IMHO, Modern science is just the newest interpretation of the book of nature, one with no end.
I think a better question to ask would be.... is there absolute truth?


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 14 years, 6 days
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: Mithril]
    #1498568 - 04/27/03 08:22 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

of course there is absolute truth, truth is the only thing that exists in this reality. nothing other than truth can exist, its impossible.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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InvisibleRevelation

 User Gallery

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,134
Loc: heart cave
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1498604 - 04/27/03 08:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Good point.


--------------------


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: ]
    #1498611 - 04/27/03 08:44 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I am certain that I exist and that an external universe exists outside my mind.




But how have you come to this conclusion? How have you ruled out the possibility that you are plugged into a machine that is simulating this reality? You are likely relying on 1) consensus agreement and 2) that believing this way has proven useful in the past. My question: How does whether a belief has proven itself useful (pragmatic) lead to absolute certainty? I don't think that this final leap is neccesary- it is just simply useful in our attempt to navigate reality. No need for this airy absolute truth idea. I think it causes more difficulty than it resolves. And how many beliefs in the past were thought to be clearly true and later replaced by a more useful view?


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Offlinethelox
member
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 140
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: Revelation]
    #1498630 - 04/27/03 08:53 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah that was a good point.
I remember reading a quote where some spiritual leader was asked if reincarnation exists
and he said for those who believe in reincarnation there is reincarnation. for those who don't there isn't.

It's kid of like flipping the adage "seeing is believing' Around to
"believing is seeing"


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Anonymous

Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: buttonion]
    #1498864 - 04/27/03 10:14 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Rather than write a tome about this fascinating subject let me point you and our other gentle readers in the right direction. As much as I would enjoy a lengthy discussion on this topic my current time constraints simply will not allow it. I am a political consultant and the May 6th primary election is coming down fast. I apologize in advance for not being able to contribute more than a quote and a few links.

Those that are ernest seekers will no doubt read these materials with an open mind if they are true skeptics.

One simple form of insanity is to deny that anything called "reality" exists. This is not too common a form of insanity because it is self-defeating. If "reality" doesn't exist, neither does the person saying it doesn't. In fact he didn't say it, since he doesn't exist. This is a rather lonesome form of insanity and you can see why not too many people want to catch it. In fact, this form of insanity is not popular in this country today at all and never really has been. If, however, you suffer from this form of insanity, you, who don't exist, may as well put your computer, which doesn't exist, in your kitchen trash can, which also doesn't exist, and go about your non-existent business. Thank you.

Taken from here.

And while you're at it check the rest of the Radical Academy.

Cheers,



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Anonymous

Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: ]
    #1498875 - 04/27/03 10:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, and one more link while we are at it for the hell of it.

I find this refutation of your premise more than adequate:

http://www.radicalacademy.com/philosophicalrealism.htm

Cheers,


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: ]
    #1499179 - 04/28/03 12:20 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)


Taken from the link:
Quote:

As already pointed out, the foundational beliefs of an authentic Realism are:

?There is a world of real existence which men have not made or constructed;
?This real existence can be known by the human mind;
?Such knowledge is the only reliable guide to human conduct, individual and social.




Good read. But how in the hell does he arrive at the second ?foundational belief.? This is why I think to claim knowledge of an absolute truth is arrogant- do we (currently) have the capacity to model the whole of objective reality in our mind? I think the likelihood of this is extremely low. What we do have are a bunch of very useful theories that bridge the gap between the way we have evolved to apprehend reality and objective reality itself. I do like realism to the extent that it helps us achieve whatever goals we want to work toward, but to say that we uncover absolute undeniable truths rather than viewing these ideas as useful models? there is simply no way to verify this. And so I don't understand how someone could so firmly hold the position.


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: buttonion]
    #1499202 - 04/28/03 12:26 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What do you know for sure?



Not a goddamn thing.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 521
Loc: on my way to another plac...
Last seen: 4 years, 9 days
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: buttonion]
    #1499269 - 04/28/03 12:48 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

this is why we have science...to prove absolute truths.

science does not prove absolute truths. science only proves things from one perspective, when there are infinite possble perspectives. of course, i dont know this for sure, this is just obvious to my rational mind, which i cant trust, damn, what can you do? I guess just belive what you feel is right at the time.

all i know for sure is that i dont know anything for sure.

here is a quote i particularly like that relates to this topic

"It isn't necessarily so, what you belive. You must see that whatever you belive in is'nt necessarily the truth, because the fact that it could be right or wrong is also infinite, that's the whole point of it. The whole being fluid and changing all the time and evolving." -Sir Paul McCartney


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome


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Invisibletekramrepus
Female User Gallery
Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,229
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: buttonion]
    #1499365 - 04/28/03 01:18 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

What do you know for sure? I don?t claim to know any absolute truths, and question the whole idea of absolute truth in general. The closest thing to truth for me is non-dualistic ?experience.? EXPERIENCE. Not, ?I am experiencing?- that is a description of experience. And not ?experiencing,? which implies a thing experiencing other things. Just the whole experience that is life, an idea that cannot really be expressed in our dualistic language system. I think supposed truths based on descriptions of this experience are more accurately expressed as ?useful models.? I think to think that one knows an ?absolute universal truth? is pretty arrogant (not to be taken as a personal attack). To think that animals who have evolved on a particular planet, who have evolved tools to ensure their survival on that planet, can use these same tools to somehow comprehend everything? I judge the probability of this occuring to be very low. 





Great topic...of course everyone knows socrates quote, what was it, something similiar to "A wise man is a man who admits he knows nothing"


Anyway, I strongly suggest you read the book Power of Now, By Eckhart Tolle. You would definately enjoy it, and can thank me later :wink:



Truth is something that is relative, and to try and grasp on to a specific truth or reality, is clinging.

The most truthful experience you can have is one that comes uninterruped by your mind, or ego. This truth is Experience, as you claimed. not the comprehension of experience, or the wanting for experience, just simply experiencing.

This is what Eckhart Tolle in his book calls Being. When you are fully present, aware of whats going on, without your mind interrferring. You are no longer seperate from God, you are God. (seperation from god is not even possible, but our mind can make us think we are)




The buddha claimed the ONE thing that is constant throughout the universe, the one thing that will never change - Is that change is inevitable. That was the one truth.

I guess thats the only thing I know to be true as well


I dont claim to know that there is a reality outside of my mind...because I dont.

All I know is what I experience, not what I REMEMBER from my experiences....not my FUTURE or PAST experiences...and certainly not my INTERPRETATION of my experiences. The only thing I know is what I feel right now, in my Present Experience. I know nothing else


Edited by tekramrepus (04/28/03 01:21 AM)


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Offlinebluesky
mushroom cowboy

Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 561
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1499466 - 04/28/03 01:45 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

This is what Eckhart Tolle in his book calls Being. When you are fully present, aware of whats going on, without your mind interrferring. You are no longer seperate from God, you are God. (seperation from god is not even possible, but our mind can make us think we are) God itself is Pure Consciousness, which is what created form in the first place. That is my opinion 




Holy crap!!!!! That's EXACTLY what I have recently come to believe!!!!!! :shocked:

Suddenly I don't feel as alone in by beliefs and ideas. 


--------------------
You're my blue sky, you're my sunny day,
Lord you know it makes me high when you turn your love my way. Turn your love my waaaaaay, Yea.
-Richard (Dickey) Betts


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: What do you know for sure? [Re: buttonion]
    #1499531 - 04/28/03 02:03 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

GR8 post man! All i realy know "for sure" is my animal urges/needs......when i'm hungry/horny or need to......well n/m, this IS S & P after all :grin: But outside of those shared common denominators(bilological functions shared with most other hominids) i don't "know" anything.......i mean i don't even know the world is round, to be honest.... 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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