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OfflineLion
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Let's talk about Libya
    #14972417 - 08/24/11 06:21 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I have been following this conflict quite closely, and I have to say there are some disturbing elements to it.  At first I thought it was a relatively feel-good story of popular uprising in favor of democracy, but there is definitely more going on here.

First of all, Gaddafi is obviously a bad leader and a terrorist.  From funding and support for people/groups as diverse as Idi Amin, al-Qaeda, and the Colombian FARC, he's had his hand in the deaths of untold thousands of civilians across the world during his four decades of power...to say nothing of his repressive domestic policies.

That being said, it's a little disturbing how one-sided media coverage has been.  There has been very little questioning of the rebel forces, despite the fact that there are radical Islamists among them.  Libya is a breeding ground of radical Islam and jihad, with a huge contingent of Libyans fighting against Allied forces in Iraq, and there are grave doubts about whether a democracy can really take root in such an environment.

Secondly, NATO has grossly exceeded its mandate in aiding the rebels so extensively in their bombing campaign.  There are also rumors of even further aid in the form of scrambled communications, propaganda, etc., but these I take with a grain of salt.  Still, it is a dangerous precedent to be set when NATO bombs the hell out of a country strategically in favor of an insurgency, and nobody really calls them out for exceeding their mandate to protect civilians.  Not to mention it's cost the U.S. more than $1 billion at a time when our domestic spending is being so hotly debated. 

The rhetoric about supporting democracy and freedom abroad is as hollow as it was when Bush used it about Iraq.  Are we not allies with equally repressive regimes, the foremost example being Saudi Arabia, which has funded terrorism for decades?  I highly doubt we would step in and bomb the Saudi govt if a democratic rebellion were ignited.  Likewise I find it impossible to envision a similar military intervention if this were another unfriendly nation which did not happen to have any oil.

What are your thoughts about the Libya situation?  What is going to come of this transition of power?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

Edited by Lion (08/24/11 06:30 PM)

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OfflineJryan
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Registered: 07/30/11
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Re: Let's talk about Libya [Re: Lion]
    #14972578 - 08/24/11 06:45 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Gaddaffi is SCREWED, he is a war criminal that is wanted by the world and by his own nation, he will be hung.  :happyhitler:


--------------------
Keep Questioning those belifes!

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Offlinebugabuga420
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Re: Let's talk about Libya [Re: Jryan]
    #14973907 - 08/24/11 10:50 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

This is what I just wrote in a different thread 


  Quote:
    Madtowntripper said:
    It's a combination of factors, I'm sure.

    Tripoli is 300-miles from Italy, a pretty important NATO member and active participant in the air campaign over Libya.  Syria is that close only to Greece and Turkey, substantially less critical member nations that have not, to my knowledge, made any significant contributions, as is certainly their right.

    Syria is more more closely linked to the Israeli issue than is Libya, and anything involving Israel or the Palestinians must be treated with kid gloves.

    Syria also has the capability, and has used it in the past, to be a destabilizing influence on Iraq and the American presence there.

    Lastly, the revolution in Libya was a substantial force before any intervention took place.  Syrians, while certainly protesting and demonstrating, and being killed for doing so, are not exactly forming armies or holding territories.  As I said, things may get to that point in Syria, but I doubt it.

    I would be remiss if I didn't mention that it is quite popular among the conspiracy crowd (I don't know what else to call them...), to believe that the Western powers are only in Libya for the oil and that Syria's paucity of strategic petroleum reserves are the reason for their not being extended a revolutionary lifeline.  I don't believe this, as is likely obvious, and think the above mentioned reasons are the factual ones.




Or it could be because Qaddafi was trying to unite the continent of Africa with a single currency back by gold, the Gold Dinar. African resources (sweetest crude, minerals, timber etc) would only be available for sale in this currency, instead of paper money backed by nothing and under global bankers control. Qaddafi also held 149 tonnes of gold. Just maybe that had something more to do with it than it being closer to Italy than Syria.

Gaddafi brought water to the desert for his people in one of the biggest water work engineering project in history. Electricity was free for households. Every married couple in Libya was eligible for a 50k interest free loan from the govt. They even had unemployment of 15k a yr for those out of work. The media trys to dehumanize him. Have you ever heard him speak? They wont let you.  I am not a supporter of him, I sure he had tyrannical ways. But at the same time I am skeptical that he was this monster , when Libya had a pretty high standard of living compared to  the rest of the continent.

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OfflineJT
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Re: Let's talk about Libya [Re: bugabuga420]
    #14973931 - 08/24/11 10:54 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

well said. i am interested to learn more about qadhafi (or however the hell you spell his name, i see it written differently every day in the news).

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Let's talk about Libya [Re: JT]
    #14974183 - 08/24/11 11:38 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

What is going to come of this transition of power?




My guess would be not much will happen from it.  There has been a transition of power, not a transformation of culture.

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Let's talk about Libya [Re: bugabuga420]
    #14974884 - 08/25/11 04:26 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bugabuga420 said:

Gaddafi brought water to the desert for his people in one of the biggest water work engineering project in history. Electricity was free for households. Every married couple in Libya was eligible for a 50k interest free loan from the govt. They even had unemployment of 15k a yr for those out of work. The media trys to dehumanize him. Have you ever heard him speak? They wont let you.  I am not a supporter of him, I sure he had tyrannical ways. But at the same time I am skeptical that he was this monster , when Libya had a pretty high standard of living compared to  the rest of the continent.




Interesting points. I also read somewhere that before Gaddafi took power, the primary source of income for the Libyans was collecting WWII scraps and selling them. I've heard he was a great leader the first decade or so of power. However, he turned into a tyrant after clinging on to power for so long.

He is a monster now though. There are so many people in his country who hate him with a passion, and it is clear why. I've also seen interviews of Libyans living abroad who have fled his rule. One of them said there was mandatory military service, but it was not training, but torture - instilling a fear of the government. As an example, recruits were made to crawl on their hands and knees on the asphalt, and soldiers were instructed to kick their feet so their knees would scrape to the bone. He also kept institutions really weak, so he would not be overthrown.

You can find speeches done by him, and they are not broadcast for a reason. The way he talks is to go on for literally hours while saying almost nothing. All you will get out of it is "Al Qaeda is behind the uprising and are giving the youths hallucinogenic drugs".


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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Invisibledespisedicon
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Re: Let's talk about Libya [Re: Lion]
    #14978059 - 08/25/11 06:06 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

He will be found eventually.  Remember it took 9 months to find Saddam.  Gaddifi signed his own death warrant when he pledged revenge for NATO no fly zone.  He's a walking dead man and his days are numbered.

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Offlinemedialies
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Re: Let's talk about Libya [Re: despisedicon]
    #14981802 - 08/26/11 12:23 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Our (the USA) involvement was unconstitutional from the start. When obama started getting alot of heat for it, NATO drastically stepped up its campaign. This l eads me to believe that nato is the rogue military vessel that the US is acting through to ' officially ' keep our hands clean.

It has also been reported by mainstream US media that these rebels are largely affiliated with Al Qaeda, which begs the question if what exactly we are trying to accomplish there. Many Arab news sources (Al Jazeera) are predicting that this 'Humanitarian' aid they are receiving from nato is nothing more than an excuse to occupy and harvest natural resources. Now, reports are circling that nato is about to put many forces on the ground to ensure a smooth transitional phase; imo this only reinforces that theory.

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